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more on dictionary: The element <usg> inside <def> #1800
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Hi,
<usg> should generally be as a child of <sense> not <def>, however of
course legacy dictionaries are not always so conveniently organized which
sounds like might be your case.
Could you give an example of what you want to be able to do and show
exactly why it is you want to put <usg> in <def>?
Best,
Jack
…On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 9:13 AM, chr-emil ***@***.***> wrote:
I am currently working on defining a TEI format for three modern Norwegian
dictionaries (two at www.ordbok.uib.no). The dictionaries are edited in a
relational database system, are published both on the web and as printed
books.
For each definition text and also for each usage example (mostly created
by the editors as is usual for this kind of dictionaries) the editor may
add information about the area of usage. In the given system this
information is taken from a predefined list (zool., bot., mil.,
outdated,…). The element is in TEI used to encode the definition (meaning)
structure, mostly a tree-structure. In each one may have a (list of)
textual definitions experessed in (e.g ‘;’ separated) followed by a (list
of) examples of use in . For each of these textual definitions and examples
one can add a usage marker. Intuitively these markers should be encoded by
the use of . However, cannot occur inside a element.
In the Guidelines we find: ‘usg’ can only occur inside:: dictScrap entry
entryFree etym form gramGrp hom re sense xr. In my case I would need to
encapsulate each and in a separate which is artificial and logically wrong.
Also, the element can contain almost anything even , , and .
The element has an area of application outside dictionaries. As it may
contain a rich variety of elements including ‘’!
The dictionaries I work with are real existing dictionaries. Since TEI is
not prescriptive, it should be adjusted to cover these dictionaries.
Suggestion: Extend the formal definition of and by adding as a possible
sub elements.
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@iljackb comments "the |
Just to revisit this, does the example provided (pairing |
Hi
I have to refresh my memory and have a look into the isse.
Best,
Chr-E
…________________________________________
From: Sarah Stanley [notifications@github.com]
Sent: 07 May 2019 17:24
To: TEIC/TEI
Cc: Christian-Emil Smith Ore; Author
Subject: Re: [TEIC/TEI] more on dictionary: The element <usg> inside <def> (#1800)
Just to revisit this, does the example provided (pairing <usg> and <def> within <sense>) resolve the issue? It seems not from your initial comment, but I'm struggling to understand how "encapsulat[ing] each <def> and <cit> in a separate <sense>" would be "artificial and logically wrong" without an example. I think a real-world example would help me understand this problem much better.
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@chr-emil have you had a chance to look at this again? Thanks! |
In our TEI-derived (i.e. modified TEI) schema for our admittedly very legacy Middle English Dictionary, usg is certainly allowed within def, and is widely used; it is hard to think of an alternative, since the usage labels are embedded within running prose, and usually (or at least often) do not stand separably off from them.
|
Council agrees this is good to implement with @PFSchaffner 's examples. |
I can see two ways of implementing this (allowing
<alternate minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="unbounded">
<macroRef key="macro.paraContent"/>
<elementRef key="usg"/>
</alternate>
<alternate minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="unbounded">
<macroRef key="macro.paraContent"/>
<classRef key="model.lexicalRefinement"/>
</alternate> |
Council meeting 2021-10-14: green for @raffazizzi to go with proposal 1 (brute force). |
Nope. Brute force (1) approach simply will not work for DTDs. Remember that macro.paraContent boils down to |
Talking this over with @martindholmes we are going to reverse this change for now, and re-visit how to accomplish |
Hi guys. This question keeps popping up on TEI Lex-0. You've asked for some examples, and here are two from @anacastrosalgado's Portuguese dictionaries (taken from DARIAH-ERIC/lexicalresources#152): <sense xml:id="MOR1.DLP.ASTROLABIO.s.1">
<usg type="domain" corresp="#domain.astronomy" resp="#Salgado"/>
<def>inſtrumento Aſtronomico,
de que ſe uſa para ſe tomarem a altura dos
aſtros</def>
<pc>.</pc>
</sense>
<sense xml:id="MOR1.DLP.TELESCOPIO.s.1">
<usg type="domain" corresp="#domain.astrology" resp="#Salgado"/>
<def>inftrumento óptico de
Aftronomia que ferve de obfervar na terra , ou
no Ceo os objectos remotos, por meio da reflexão
, ou refracção da luz</def>
<pc>.</pc>
</sense> Things to consider:
I agree that this is a tricky situation, but as @iljackb says above legacy dictionaries are often not "conveniently" organized. We have many more examples in which definitions, indeed, include collocation information or grammatical information etc. So the idea of "pure" definitions simply doesn't work in older dictionaries. |
I am currently working on defining a TEI format for three modern Norwegian dictionaries (two at www.ordbok.uib.no). The dictionaries are edited in a relational database system, are published both on the web and as printed books.
For each definition text and also for each usage example (mostly created by the editors as is usual for this kind of dictionaries) the editor may add information about the area of usage. In the given system this information is taken from a predefined list (zool., bot., mil., outdated,…). The element
<sense>
is in TEI used to encode the definition (meaning) structure, mostly a tree-structure. In each<sense>
one may have a (list of) textual definitions experessed in<def>
(e.g ‘;’ separated) followed by a (list of) examples of use in<cit>
. For each of these textual definitions and examples one can add a usage marker. Intuitively these markers should be encoded by the use of<usg>
. However,<usg>
cannot occur inside a<def>
element.In the Guidelines we find: ‘usg’ can only occur inside:: dictScrap entry entryFree etym form gramGrp hom re sense xr. In my case I would need to encapsulate each
<def>
and<cit>
in a separate<sense>
which is artificial and logically wrong. Also, the element can contain almost anything even<email>
,<height>
, and<climate>
.The element has an area of application outside dictionaries. As
<def>
it may contain a rich variety of elements including<superEntry>
!The dictionaries I work with are real existing dictionaries. Since TEI is not prescriptive, it should be adjusted to cover these dictionaries.
Suggestion: Extend the formal definition of
<def>
and<cit>
by adding<usg>
as a possible sub elements.The text was updated successfully, but these errors were encountered: