The human radar is disfunctional

[illwieckz]

I'm not able to see anything more while wearing a radar.

How to reproduce:

/devmap plat23
/team humans; give funds 10000 ; give momentum 10000
- join -
- buy a radar -
/bot add * aliens
/bot add * aliens
/bot add * aliens

[DolceTriade]

What do you mean see anything more? Radar was working fine for me in the devgames today. Note that radar now works as a wallhack with beacons showing alien locations through walls.

[illwieckz]

Buying a radar does not show me alien locations through walls using beacons. It shows me those beacons only if someone on the team spotted these alien locations, radar or not.

[Viech]

Is this true even if aliens are close? The range of the radar is limited.

[illwieckz]

Even if they are close.

On this screenshot I'm wearing a radar inside the alien base, but since I haven't spotted the buildable myself, they aren't shown:

On this screenshot there is a visible but not yet spotted alien (right under my gun), radar missed it:

[slipher]

Buildables are not detected by the radar by design: https://github.com/Unvanquished/Unvanquished/blob/master/src/sgame/sg_active.cpp#L844

Tagging of alien players not in direct line of sight seems to work fine for me, so I'm not sure what's going on with that last screenshot.

[Viech]

It is indeed intended that the radar does not spot buildables around corners. I did not recall that it tags them when they are both close and in a line of sight, but the code says that this is the case.

The second screenshot does indeed look like a bug since the alien is that close. However, re-reading the code it looks like aliens need to be in radar range for one second total (or half a second when in range of two radars or in range of one radar plus one person actively spotting, etc.) to be tagged.

Could this be the cause of your issue? If yes, should we make it instantaneous/faster when there is a line of sight?

[slipher]

Regardless of whether we decide to tweak the radar, it seems safe to remove this from the a51 checklist, as it is not a big issue and sgame is easy to test between releases anyway.

[illwieckz]

I agree

[illwieckz]

Postponed to Unvanquished 0.52.0.

I still set a milestone because currently the radar looks useless so something has to be done whatever we will do.

[illwieckz]

The second screenshot does indeed look like a bug since the alien is that close. However, re-reading the code it looks like aliens need to be in radar range for one second total (or half a second when in range of two radars or in range of one radar plus one person actively spotting, etc.) to be tagged.
Could this be the cause of your issue? If yes, should we make it instantaneous/faster when there is a line of sight?

I always believed the radar would add beacons for all alien players in range, that would be the reason why a player would buy it: to not rely on sight. So, I expect instantaneous marking without requiring line of sight if in range when using a radar.

[illwieckz]

A video depicting how much useless is the radar. On this video the radar only detects aliens after they have appeared on screen:

https://dl.illwieckz.net/b/unvanquished/bugs/useless-radar/20200914-211910.unvanquished-useless-radar.webm

[Viech]

You have a misconception of the radar. The radar tags aliens just like looking at alien buildables does and through this makes them visible to your teammates as well. It allows you to spot aliens hiding from you (e.g. ceiling) and to keep track of aliens who try to avoid and reengage you through movement. It does not and should not allow you to preshoot an enemy in wallhack style.

Giving humans who have the range advantage the same full on wallhack that aliens have was never intended and should in my opinion not be done at all.

It used to be that you could also tag aliens by looking at them for a second though this seems removed now. It probably already was too strong.

[illwieckz]

So, basically you need someone else to wear the radar so you can see aliens that are not in sight? I see no point in that. Also it looks like some others players are as baffled as me to no experience anything new for themselves while buying this outfit.

I really doubt anyone would buy a radar and understand how it works for real. I never understood until now (if I understood it right)… To me that means the design is wrong. By buying something called “radar” I expect to at least detect moving aliens around, at least.

[Viech]

So, basically you need someone else to wear the radar so you can see aliens that are not in sight?

It allows you to spot aliens hiding from you (e.g. ceiling) and to keep track of aliens who try to avoid and reengage you through movement.

Plus, teamplay and varied gears within a team are nice.

Also you are essentially hijjacking a bug report for a gameplay discussion, please don't do that. The radar works, just not how you'd like it to. Change it but don't be surprised if players enjoy playing aliens less because they are eating a mass driver with no chance to bite even once.

[illwieckz]

Also you are essentially hijjacking a bug report for a gameplay discussion, please don't do that.

This is not hijacking, this is categorizing. There is a problem, we have to explore multiple aspects to find where it lies precisely.

There is an issue: people don't get what they believe they get. Either what they get is buggy, either it was sold them wrong.

This maybe an implementation issue, a problem with our communication, our tutorial being wrong, the name of the product not being misleading, or things like that, and it has impact on gameplay.

Even with the current implementation the maybe-misnamed “radar” is overpowered (see Unvanquished/Unvanquished#1245), so increasing the nearby alien detection in a way players expects it when they buy something called a “radar” may be a bad idea.

But for sure, the “radar” name give players false expectations in a way they regularly report the radar being broken, while at the same time, it is overpowered. That may be more a communication issue.

[Viech]

Just to be clear, we have ruled out the possiblity that there is a bug?

[Gireen]

There is a bug in the radar Unvanquished/Unvanquished#1169
But that is not related to this issue.

from radar seems broken to radar is op without doing anything, i like that 😄
I think this issue is solved with that and with the suggested changes from #3
🎉

[Viech]

Alright so I'll close this one as it was originally about a bug and because we seem to have accepted the notion that the radar is currently too strong in #3.