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Unit of permeability #3295

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AHaumer opened this issue Jan 8, 2020 · 7 comments · Fixed by #3811
Closed

Unit of permeability #3295

AHaumer opened this issue Jan 8, 2020 · 7 comments · Fixed by #3811
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discussion Discussion issue that it not necessarily related to a concrete bug or feature L: Constants Issue addresses Modelica.Constants L: Magnetic.FluxTubes Issue addresses Modelica.Magnetic.FluxTubes L: Units Issue addresses Modelica.Units
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@AHaumer
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AHaumer commented Jan 8, 2020

  • SIunits.Permeability is defined with unit "H/m".
  • Constants.mu_0 is defined as real with unit "N/A2".
  • Both units are correct, we could also use "V.s/(A.m)".

Two questions:

  1. Do all tools figure out that N/A2 = H/m = V.s/(A.m) ?
  2. Shouldn't Constants.mu_0 define SIunits.Permeability mu_0 instead of Real mu_0(unit="N/A2")?
@AHaumer AHaumer self-assigned this Jan 8, 2020
@AHaumer AHaumer added discussion Discussion issue that it not necessarily related to a concrete bug or feature L: Constants Issue addresses Modelica.Constants L: Magnetic.FluxTubes Issue addresses Modelica.Magnetic.FluxTubes L: SIunits Issue addresses Modelica.SIunits question Unexplained or undecided issue labels Jan 8, 2020
@AHaumer AHaumer added this to the MSL4.0.0 milestone Jan 8, 2020
@beutlich beutlich removed their assignment Jan 8, 2020
@dietmarw
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dietmarw commented Jan 9, 2020

  1. My personal preference would be to use V.s/(A.m) as they are SI units and not derived.
  2. Yes I agree.

@HansOlsson
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Two questions:

Do all tools figure out that N/A2 = H/m = V.s/(A.m) ?

Yes, if tools are able to do any reasonable unit-checking (which I believe most are) that is trivial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_permeability uses both H/m and N/A2, and give reasonable explanations for both, and also indicates a larger issue - the constant no longer has a fixed simple value, but now seems to be 4π × 1.000 000 000 82 (20) 1e-7.

I can make a PR. (Just changing the value, not adding the indirect definition, since that definition requires yet another measured constant that I don't see any libraries using.)

Shouldn't Constants.mu_0 define SIunits.Permeability mu_0 instead of Real mu_0(unit="N/A2")?

That would work as well, but it depends on how dependent we want to make the libraries.
However, since we use it for the other constants it would make sense.

@HansOlsson
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Two questions:
Do all tools figure out that N/A2 = H/m = V.s/(A.m) ?

Yes, if tools are able to do any reasonable unit-checking (which I believe most are) that is trivial.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_permeability uses both H/m and N/A2, and give reasonable explanations for both, and also indicates a larger issue - the constant no longer has a fixed simple value, but now seems to be 4π × 1.000 000 000 82 (20) 1e-7.

Have made PR with the correct value, now it is just a matter of fixing the bad value on Wikipedia!

@beutlich
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beutlich commented Jan 9, 2020

I guess you mean:

grafik

@HansOlsson
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HansOlsson commented Jan 9, 2020

I guess you mean:

I meant changing it from 4π × 1.000 000 000 82 (20) 1e-7 to 4π × 1.000 000 000 55 (15) 1e-7; as given in https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/pdf/all.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vacuum_permeability&type=revision&diff=934922863&oldid=921057044

@HansOlsson
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Reading more I'm not sure if we should change the type of the constant, as there are some indications that mu_0 isn't seen as "permeability of vacuum" anymore, but as a "magnetic constant".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_permeability

I don't know if there is a deep reason for that (and if so what it is), but assuming there is it seems odd to use the type "Permeability". On the other hand https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Constants/codata.pdf uses "magnetic constant" and mu/mu_0 as a relative permeability - indicating that mu_0 is also a permeability.

@AHaumer
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AHaumer commented Jan 12, 2020

In fact mu_0 is a permeability ... and I prefer unit = V.s/(A.m)

@beutlich beutlich added L: Units Issue addresses Modelica.Units and removed L: SIunits Issue addresses Modelica.SIunits labels Mar 7, 2020
@beutlich beutlich removed this from the MSL4.0.0 milestone Mar 24, 2020
dietmarw added a commit to dietmarw/ModelicaStandardLibrary that referenced this issue May 20, 2021
@beutlich beutlich added this to the MSL4.1.0 milestone May 20, 2021
beutlich pushed a commit to dietmarw/ModelicaStandardLibrary that referenced this issue May 20, 2021
@beutlich beutlich removed the question Unexplained or undecided issue label May 22, 2021
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discussion Discussion issue that it not necessarily related to a concrete bug or feature L: Constants Issue addresses Modelica.Constants L: Magnetic.FluxTubes Issue addresses Modelica.Magnetic.FluxTubes L: Units Issue addresses Modelica.Units
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