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@frassle (current maintainer) is stepping away from this project. The project owner is not around to give direction, and I don't have access to the website, nuget account, travis account or most permissions on the github account. I can't push this project forward.
As I'm the only one whos maintained this repo for the last 6 months with my absence pull requests and issues will probably stay unresolved. I'd suggest developer look to other projects like [MonoGame](http://www.monogame.net/) or [SDL2#](https://github.com/flibitijibibo/SDL2-CS).
As this is a large project used by many people I thought it best to add this notice before signing off.
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Can you link him here? If he agrees, maybe we can add some people to the contributors - and maybe admin - team to continue development and maintenance of OpenTK as a community effort.
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I sent @thefiddler private messages on opentk.com. Maybe we'll hear back; he often takes a while to reply.
If we can continue in this main opentk/opentk repository, I want to add unit tests for the math classes & someone needs to work on WinForm / WPF support. I could not get the glControl to work in a WinForm in Visual Studio 2013 Professional & in MonoDevelop in Linux it would not even compile.
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SharpGL has very good working WinForm & WPF OpenGL code - but it is Windows only. It may be possible to refactor based on their example to achieve more stable WPF & WinForm code, but find a way to still keep it cross platform.
Maybe he will say he is still maintaining OpenTK so @Frassle jumped the gun recommending giving up on OpenTK & looking into other software packages. Or maybe he will give administrative privileges to some other people so OpenTK can be maintained as a community project.
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@wcdeich4 please look up the history of OpenTK, it's disastrous, @thefiddler is smart, but he is really unreliable, he just goes missing without a word to anyone. @Frassle didn't jump the gun.
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How about a OpenTK facebook page
I'm a bit skeptical. Facebook doesn't seem like the typical place developers hang out to discuss tech. A forum seems like a more suitable discussion platform to me and while there already is one, it appears to be full of spam and abandoned.
Maybe an overall website relaunch could help; nothing fancy, just a prebuilt forum software and a notice with a link to the GitHub page, then some community-driven moderation and administration, and the rest will probably sort itself out over time. Then again, this is nothing we could do without @thefiddler.
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@cra0zy & @ilexp - I'm a software engineer by day & my company hired a marketing firm to help us get more business. One conclusion was we were not getting more business b/c we did not have enough social media presence. Facebook may not be where most programmers discuss code, but I guarantee all programmers have facebook accounts & if this project is to survive in any form, it needs more people involved, we need to stop hiding our light under a bushel so to speak.
@andykorth - thanks for the links & thanks for your hard work on this project.
Is OpenTK still under development, or is it dead?
I noticed some disturbing signs, like:
Forums get one post per day max
No nightly releases since March
No official releases since 2010
No news or blog posts since 2010
So the few people who know about OpenTK start thinking it's dead when there are no news/blog posts or new releases for over a year at a time.
Conversely, if we get the word out about OpenTK thru facebook news posts & youtube videos, we should be able to attract new programmers who are interested in C# OpenGL programming.
Now I understand in http://www.opentk.com/node/3280 there was concern about granting permissions to someone who appeared to be an imposter. The way we deal w/ that in a corporate environment is you wouldn't sign a legally binding contract w/ someone w/out first talking to them on the phone, teleconferencing & if possible meeting them in person. But if OpenTK is going to continue in it's present form with this as it's repository, @thefiddler needs some "Tech Leads" to assist him as the "Architect", again using corporate lingo. If @thefiddler is going to take year+ long vacations from this project, he needs other people to be able to approve pull requests in his absence. I don't know whom, but someone.
Sorry if I'm getting all excited about a project I only learned about 6 months ago, but I really like OpenTK. I like how it has OpenGL features up thru OpenGL 4.0 in C# + a simple cross platform GameWindow class. Granted, OpenTK has bugs. * (Does anyone know how I can post an issue about glControl not working in WinFom / WPF... again? The "issues" link on opentk.com currently has a "Four-oh-four" error. I also found a bug where if you leave lighting enabled, but don't specify texture coordinates, it crashes)* -- But as a simple Cross Platform OpenGL C# framework, OpenTK is really what I've been looking for.
I'd hate for OpenTK to end up abandoned like Tao.FreeGlut :(
But we gotta get the word out. Like they say in HR, "our most precious resource is people" - that's not just a slogan to get you thru a stressful day. W/out programmers bugs don't get fixed, new features don't get added & w/out updates any computer software will eventually curl up & die in the dust bin of history like Fortran
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@wcdeich4
I know exactly how you feel. I've been using OpenTK for 4 years now. I had fun finding bugs in real case scenarious and assisting the developers on pinpointing the problem and testing it.
Also helping people on the forum.
Unfortunately I'm afraid I lack the experience in developing libraries, bindings and whatnot is involved so I cannot directly help with commits.
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@winterhell I've forked the code & you can too (anyone/everyone can it's open source w/ no usage restrictions), so even if @thefiddler is never heard from again, we can use this code to start a new project if we want to. But I hope we hear from @thefiddler soon.
And good news, I think the WinForm & WPF stuff is probably working; I wasn't using the latest version.
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Hey guys, just jumping in as someone else who would really like to see OpenTK continue. I meant to contribute in the past, but did not get around to it - and I dont trust myself enough to commit to something like that right now either.
However, since some of you are talking about replacing the official opentk website/forum, that is something I could help with. I'm not a web developer, but I got tons of unused webspace and wouldn't mind paying for a url either. I could set up whatever forum software we think is best, and keep it free of spam and do whatever other moderation is needed.
Is this something that would be helpful at all? If you agree that the current site/forum is not going to work, switching to a new one (maybe temporarily?) will still require all currently interested parties to sign up and give it some life. It also means we have to get people who have questions to actually find the forum.
I'm very willing to set something up (and maintain it), but only if there is somewhat of a consensus that it is a good idea. ("Splitting the community" sounds like a terrible idea.)
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My experience as an open source maintainer is that it's incredibly valuable to have a central place for a community to form, help each other and discuss ideas and issues. So in general, I think setting up a forum is a great idea.
As to whether setting up a new one is a great idea as well heavily depends on whether @thefiddler shows up soon and allows us to restart the official one. But my impression is that we shouldn't count on this right now.
So..
I could set up whatever forum software we think is best, and keep it free of spam and do whatever other moderation is needed.
...this sounds very good to me.
Just throwing some more ideas into the mix, you could, if you're fine with this, host this in a distinct part of your webspace with custom FTP users, so you could easily add other admins that you deem trustworthy enough at some later point in time. Given our current situation, I think it would be wise to set up any new efforts in a person-wise redundant way and have a group of people maintain everything, rather than just a single person.
Another important step in this would be to reach out to @Frassle once again in order to update the OpenTK repository notice, but since I don't want to bother him too much with this after he explicitly stepped back, it would be a good idea to wait with this until a new community site and maintained GitHub fork is determined.
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@ilexp has some great ideas!!!!!!!!!! And I love the enthusiasm from @amulware !!!!!!!!!!!
I agree a lot depends on if we hear from @thefiddler soon. I've done everything possible to contact him on github, https://launchpad.net/~stapostol & even searching for him on facebook, wo we may hear back from him sometime in the next month or so.
I think it would be better to revitalize OpenTK than to create a spin off project - there is value in name recognition.
I agree 100% we need to be "person-wise redundant"!!!! No organization can function w/ a single point of failure if 1 person quits. It does not matter if you're a fortune 500 company or a small open source software project like this!
I think when we hear from @thefiddler he'll be reasonable & probably give administrative privileges to @andykorth + @mrhelmut and maybe a few others. I really hope we hear from @thefiddler soon.
I think the most important thing is to use social media, like facebook, twitter, youtube videos to get out the word about this project. http://www.opentk.com/forum is not a bad forum per-say (although the issues link is broken) - the real problem is almost no one knows about opentk.com. The way Google works is they create a matrix of every page on the internet based on how many other websites link to your website & use Eigen vectors to rank how popular your website is. The bottom line is if no other webpages are talking about you, it's almost impossible anyone will find you in a search :(
I know @amulware is working on a Awgraphics, great new C# platform build on top of OpenTK. If @thefiddler gets back to us & grants admin privileges to a few other people, Awgraphics could actually be part of OpenTK (If @amulware wants that). I got a message from @thefiddler last month saying it would be welcome for me to add unit tests & some new math operators to OpenTK (of course that was before @Frassle left).
I love @ilexp's ideas & we could really use @amulware's support, but I think we should give @thefiddler at least a month to write back & we can use that time for planning. If we don't hear back from @thefiddler for months, then maybe this will take the form of adding OpenTK's + @amulware's Awgraphics + some other features conglomerating into one new project. But I think keeping the recognized OpenTK project alive & creating new projects connected to OpenTK would be better (Not to mention more webpages linking to eachother increases your Google Eigen vector score LOL :))
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I agree with pretty much everything you guys are saying.
As @ilexp says, I would absolutely set up a forum on its own ftp, with its own database, and I am fine giving access to a few select others. I agree that redundancy is important.
Regarding my library build on OpenTK, I'm not convinced that it really belongs into OpenTK (for those that don't know: it's an object oriented wrapper around OpenGL/OpenTK, but it also has a bunch of other shenanigans - and currently it is in a pretty bad shape and really needs a lot of cleanup/improvement/refactoring). But I am certainly open to talking about it (and while the repo doesn't specify a license, I consider it do-what-you-want anyways). Right now it seems like a better idea to keep things split though.
I can also see the point about giving it some time, and seeing if @thefiddler gets back to us. As far as I understand it though this has been tried in the past, and while some things have happened (like this official repo) he tends to drop things again after some time without letting anybody know?
So even if he gets back, it seems to me that the main priority is getting control of this repo, and maybe the website into multiple hands - or at least someone else's hands for the time being.
I agree that it is a good idea to make plans in the meantime, so that depending on whether and how @thefiddler gets back to us, we can proceed in whatever we think is best for OpenTK.
Some things that I think we should decide on:
A url to host things on
most opentk related urls seem to be taken (well, mostly parked), any ideas?
Forum software
I have some experience with phpbb (and quite like it), but I'm open to alternatives
What else?
Small aside: My blog gets some decent traffic. Once we figure things out, I would be very willing to try and get more attention for OpenTK that way, as well as through Twitter and Google+.
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So even if he gets back, it seems to me that the main priority is getting control of this repo, and maybe the website into multiple hands - or at least someone else's hands for the time being.
As far as domain endings go, .net is my obvious favourite. Opinions?
Forum software
I would've picked phpbb as well, but that's just because it's the only one I've ever set up and modified manually. Not a web developer here.
Small aside: My blog gets some decent traffic. Once we figure things out, I would be very willing to try and get more attention for OpenTK that way, as well as through Twitter and Google+.
Nice :) If this works out, I'll try to get some attention as well.
On a different note, we need to decide how to proceed with the GitHub repository in case @thefiddler remains unreachable. I think there are essentially two ways:
Create a new GitHub organization with a similar (same, ideally) name to the new website domain, fork OpenTK and declare this new repository as the new "community-driven" OpenTK project. As with the FTP and forum software, we should keep it redundant here as well and (in the long run) have multiple admins with full access in the organization.
Write a support E-Mail to the GitHub team, explain the situation, link to this thread and ask whether they would use their powers to add another admin to the existing OpenTK organization. I don't really think there's a high chance to succeed here though, and that's for a good reason. Even if they take the time to investigate, this does seem a bit sketchy.
If we go with the first option, I'd suggest @amulware as the organization owner, essentially to group the initial admin capabilities until we're ready to move on with the distributed approach - which will be as soon as it is decided who will be in the initial admin team.
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I think we will probably hear back from @thefiddler & he will probably be reasonable to give admin rights on the onentk.com & github.com/opentk to at least @andykorth + @mrhelmut because they've been on this project for years.
God forbid we never hear from @thefiddler we have to avoid a name conflict between the older version & the new version. It would be terrible if people google "OpenTK" & they come to www.opentk.com instead of opentkproject.net :( I think I previously suggested integrating some SharpGL features OpenTK (and making them cross platform since SharpGL is windows only). In the terrible event we never back from @thefiddler we could combine them into a new project called "SharpTK" (just a suggestion)
But there is value in staying with the existing project if at all possible. Google "SharpGL or OpenTK" & you'll find http://www.opentk.com/node/2990
Back in 2012 @thefiddler wrote "OpenTK supports OpenGL ES and is bundled with MonoDroid/MonoTouch for Android and iOS. Last time I checked SharpGL did not support OpenGL ES at all."
Apparently @thefiddler did not realize SharpGL is not even cross platform, but if OpenTK is bundled w/ MonoDroid/MonoTouch for Android and iOS, working on OpenTK gives us a lot of name recognition, as opposed to working on a new project based on the ashes of the OpenTK project.
But if we never hear from @thefiddler opentk.com & github.com/opentk/opentk will probably stay up as "fossil websites" almost forever, which pretty much would necessitate a name change if we never hear from @thefiddler
I don't know, maybe "NewOpenTK" or "CommunityOpenTK" so it's clear this is a continuation of the existing project - but I think everything will be a lot if we hear back from @thefiddler & there's a good chance we will
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I like the idea being 'NewOpenTK' or similar for distinction, but it also feels a bit awkward... In either case opentkproject(.net) seems like a fine url/organisation name to me. I also appreciate @ilexp's trust.
In either case, it would be great if we can get some of the frequent/long-time contributors to be around to help with reviewing PRs and similar. Unfortunately, all I can offer as incentive are cookies.
Speaking of incentives, do you think it is at all possible to create incentives for knowledgeable people to come (back) to the project to make major changes (whatever may be needed)?
While asking for donations may be one of the easiest ways to do so, I am not convinced that paying people works well in an open source environment. It seems that the problem is time, not money.. and converting one to the other is even in the best case icky and subjective.
Apart from putting people's name on it, I can't think of much we can do to make it tasty - except for having it be used by LOTS of people, which is sort of a vicious circle.
Anyways, just some thoughts.
@wcdeich4 I hope your optimism will pay off. I tend to take a more careful stance myself, but things would certainly be a lot easier if we could take over, instead of mutiny.
In the meantime, should I reserve the url and organisation opentkproject(.net) just in case, to make sure we got it if we need it?
(I'd be perfectly willing to give up either to someone else at any point, if you guys think it's a better idea.)
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I don't think opentkproject(.net) would work b/c google will confuse it with opentk.com the current site, which would remain a "fossil site" if @thefiddler remains MIA forever.
I was thinking maybe NewTK.org/com/net & keeping the name OpenTK but @cra0zy has a point, OpenTK's name has baggage - some good, but maybe even more bad :(
BTW, there is a project called "MathParserTK" (totally unrelated) - it's also abandonware, but it works good & it's C# so it should be compatible. That could certainly be merged in. Maybe "TotalTK" b/c it will have so many features or "NewTK" or.....???
I'm still optimistic we wil hear from @thefiddler, just when. We could strategize for 2 months or so, but if this is a 2 year hiatus, that would kill the project unless others intervene.
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If you need some help with maintaining the project, I don't mind helping
Awesome :) Glad to hear!
While asking for donations may be one of the easiest ways to do so, I am not convinced that paying people works well in an open source environment. It seems that the problem is time, not money.. and converting one to the other is even in the best case icky and subjective.
Agreed completely. Donations won't cut it, even if we manage to gather a significant amount.
In either case, it would be great if we can get some of the frequent/long-time contributors to be around to help with reviewing PRs and similar.
My suggestion would be to poke them with a mention and see if they join the discussion and offer their help. We could also look around among the most active users of OpenTK - there are plenty of projects out there. Maybe some of them would be willing to join.
BTW, there is a project called "MathParserTK" (totally unrelated) - it's also abandonware, but it works good & it's C# so it should be compatible. That could certainly be merged in. Maybe "TotalTK" b/c it will have so many features or "NewTK" or.....???
I don't think we should go and merge other projects into OpenTK. Neither SharpGL, nor MathParserTK, nor any other. Our first goal should be to revive and revitalize OpenTK as is. Even when putting my personal opinion on why not to merge any of these projects aside, we simply do not have a communication platform right now that would allow us to decide something like this.
In the meantime, should I reserve the url and organisation opentkproject(.net) just in case, to make sure we got it if we need it?
I think we should wait until we've settled the naming issue.
As @cra0zy correctly pointed out, the name of OpenTK has unfortunately gathered some negative associations over the years and finding multiple "Is OpenTK dead?" posts when googling it does not help. I personally like the old name, but given our situation and the fact that we're working on a new maintenance staff with a new repository, we might as well use a new name. If we do that, our domain and organization names shouldn't link back to opentk.
Now, regarding a new name for the project, any ideas?
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I think the new OpenTK central should be distinctly recognized as a successor of the project.
Something akin to OpenTKReborn.com for the domain name. The project could still have the same name as before, starting with version 1.1.5. or 1.2.0.
And in the future if Fiddler blesses the project it could be made so that OpenTK.com redirects to the new place.
Flowing the current topics into the new site, probably as an 'archive' section would also be a good thing.
While some of the topics are regarding bugs in the framework that were eventually fixed, there are a lot of newbie questions that keep recurring. It would be nice that people can search there, for problems that are both solved and unsolved. At most, we can remove the duplicate topics and the redundant ones.
Ideally the recurring questions could be moved to a huge FAQ bit by bit.
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I think the new OpenTK central should be distinctly recognized as a successor of the project.
Something akin to OpenTKReborn.com for the domain name. The project could still have the same name as before, starting with version 1.1.5. or 1.2.0.
That "reborn" term in specific sounds a bit cheesy to me, but I get the idea and we could probably find something more fine-tuned along those lines.
Still, maybe we should pick a distinct name and then add something like "A community-driven OpenTK derivative" and link back to the original to draw a clear line: OpenTK may be gone, but now we're on stage 2 with project Foo. Maybe we could also fork from opentk/opentk and rename the project later, so we'd have a foo-team/foo repo with a GitHub-generated "forked from opentk/opentk" link beneath it.
I definitely like the old name, but I'm a bit conflicted about sticking to it as well - even if it's just because it can lead to people asking "which one?" when telling someone you use OpenTK. It could also lead to irritations among new users when they google how to do X or Y and they find stuff from a framework with the same name that's very similar, but seems (?) to be something else, because there's this old domain and some different GitHub project.. you get it. A new name would also open up a new conceptual space, which might be a good thing.
But then again, I'm conflicted on this.
I would really like if the new name was an anagram.
Incidentally, another anagram of OpenTK is "kept on". We could rename our efforts to "Kepton" and then choose some kind of elemental particle as a logo. 😄
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@amulware I think developers for seedling opensource projects are going to need to be incentivized by their passion for the subject (Cross Platform C# OpenGL in our case). Imagine if we have ad banners & a few donations & your incentive for the first year comes out to only $5. Are you going to quit like @Frassle? It's also super annoying when a great free program like AnyVideoConverter realizes they're starting to have a significant user base & makes a "pro" version that is basically the same as the old free version & then only lets you continue to use 50% of the features in the new free version that were there for free just yesterday!!!! :(
The primary benefits of a project like this are sharpening our skills & gaining notoriety as a great programmer.
The beauty of OpenTK is it allows anyone to write OpenGL programs in C# that run on Windows / Linux / etc (or even VB.NET, C++/CLI on Windows only) totally free. Granted, it has some bugs, but I think that is largely due to not enough people have heard of OpenTK to get a significant development community involved to fix bugs or add features to keep up as operating systems change etc *(and developing w/ unit tests). * But that can be fixed w/ publicity on social media to find more people. And we can fight spambots w/ those "Recapta" images they use on ebay etc
Also, I'd like to remind everyone it was @Frassle that got frustrated & quit & *_told *_everyone else that @thefiddler was not available. I got 2 emails from @thefiddler on opentk.com's private email server just last month. And it doesn't even have to be "take over" - @thefiddler started this project & he's more than welcome to continue to be our "Architect" who oversees things - he just needs to appoint "Technical Leaders" beneath him who can run the daily administration when he's off doing whatever else he does. Even the existing page opentk.com can be revamped --- the only real death nail in this project is that is never had a massive social media outreach to let people know it exists. I've been programming OpenGL off & on a hobby for 10 years since college & I never heard of OpenTK before 6 months ago when I was googling "C# OpenGL" & even then I found the abandoned Tao.FreeGlut project before I found OpenTK!!! :(
@thefiddler also has an account at https://launchpad.net/~stapostol & you can find numerous places in the OpenTK code that say "(C) Stefanos Apostolopoulos.... permission is hereby granted ...." so I'm pretty sure his name is Stefanos Apostolopoulos & Launchpad.Net lists him as living in Athens, Greece. Does anyone have any ideas how we can try to contact him faster to speed things up?
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We heard from @thefiddler!!!!!!!!!!! He's going to give Administrative privileges to opentk.com & github.com/opentk/opentk to other people so it can continue as a community project!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
His message:
From: stapostol@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [NuGet Gallery] Message for owners of the package 'OpenTK.Rift'
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 01:57:35 +0100
To: wcdeich4@hotmail.com
Hello,
Thank you for contacting me, I did receive your previous email but I wanted to think what’s the best way forward first.
The gist of the situation is that the workload of my phd currently prohibits me from working on OpenTK for the next 3 months �at least. It’s frustrating, but I am currently spending every waking hour in the lab doing experiments, programming, writing my thesis. Unfortunately, I stopped using OpenTK in my research before I had a chance to merge my last complex contribution (OpenCL 2.0 support) - everything after that was handled by either Fraser or other developers.
At this point, I think the best option is to hand over the repository / website to people who are willing to carry the torch and bring the project forward to the .Net Core / Vulkan era. I would still contribute code once my current crunch is over, but these developments are too important to wait, and I simply do not wish to be the limiting factor to the progress of the project.
Could you name a few people you think might be willing to handle this?
Note that the Nuget repository is owned by the Delta3d guys, so there is little to do there unless someone can convince them to transfer it. I have access to “OpenTK.Next” and “OpenTK.Rift”, in case someone is interested in releasing new versions of those packages.
PS: for stress-management reasons, I am avoiding the github link until the weekend. These discussions sometimes tend to get out of hand and this is something I don’t wish to face right now. (Although I do hope this one remains civil :) )
PSS: I was a bit surprised that Fraser quit so suddenly. I do understand his frustration and I don’t blame him in any way, I just hoped he would have contacted me about his concerns first. This project has simply grown to a point where ad-hoc development doesn’t really work anymore.
My Response:
Dear Stefanos Apostolopoulos,
Thank you for so much for writing back. I only have a B.S. & I often spent nights not sleeping in college, so I can't imagine what you're going thru in PhD studies. My Recommendations:
Harry (cra0zy on github) - very enthusiastic OpenTK supporter cra0zy@gmail.com
@wcdeich4 (myself), math programmer who uses OpenTK - I don't know if I'm worthy of being a full admin, but if you give me Pull Request approval permission, I could help out.
May the Lord bless you in your PhD studies & I look forward to your continued brilliant contributions to OpenTK in the future.
Sincerely,
William Deich
PS, I contacted "exDreamDuck" who made a nuget package for just plain OpenTK & he promised he will update the "Install-Package OpenTK" package based on the latest version github.com/opentk/opentk
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And it doesn't even have to be "take over" - @thefiddler started this project & he's more than welcome to continue to be our "Architect" who oversees things - he just needs to appoint "Technical Leaders" beneath him who can run the daily administration when he's off doing whatever else he does.
Agreed completely.
Also, I'd like to remind everyone it was @Frassle that got frustrated & quit & *told *everyone else that @thefiddler was not available.
There is a reason this message resonated with a lot of people, rather than being rejected. It's not like he just made something up and it's not like we just blindly believed someone who came along to do so. Yes, @thefiddler might have been around somewhere on the internet, but the thing that really matters for OpenTK is whether or not there is someone to administrate and maintain it - which wasn't the case.
Don't get me wrong: I totally get that he has a life outside this and I don't think he is in any way obligated to be here or be available at all times. OpenTK exists in the first place because of his efforts and I'm grateful for all the work he put in there. Some projects might not even exists without OpenTK. This is not about taking over his project or talking badly about how he isn't here, but about managing the situation and keeping the project alive.
That said:
We heard from @thefiddler!!!!!!!!!!! He's going to give Administrative privileges to opentk.com & github.com/opentk/opentk to other people so it can continue as a community project!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is awesome :) Looking forward to hear from him!
I just thought to point out that by continuing with the current repo and website, there cannot really be any re-branding. Given that there are concerns about the image of OpenTK, that may be something to think about.
On the other hand, this allows us to work on improving the existing brand image, instead of having to deal with making the distinction between the old and the new one.
I cannot tell which of these would be more advantageous for the project in the long term.
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On the other hand, this allows us to work on improving the existing brand image, instead of having to deal with making the distinction between the old and the new one.
I feel a little more comfortable with this one though. If community-driven maintenance and development turns out to work well enough, the problem will hopefully solve itself eventually. However, we should definitely spread the word about the change in project structure and its revival, as soon as that's settled and done.
Harry (cra0zy on github) - very enthusiastic OpenTK supporter cra0zy@gmail.com
@wcdeich4 (myself), math programmer who uses OpenTK - I don't know if I'm worthy of being a full admin, but if you give me Pull Request approval permission, I could help out.
Did you ask everyone if they wanted to be maintainers/if they had time?
PS. @mrhelmut (you got wrong info on him) and me were only adding stuff related to MonoGame.
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Scratches head-
I'm not really aiming for a maintainer's position.
I'm happy to contribute small stuff when I can find and test it, but I haven't got the experience to start doing anything major, and related to this I'm not happy commenting on impacts non-obvious pull requests may have on something I haven't thought of :)
Everything I know is self-taught, and I haven't got any commercial or really wider experience....
We need thefiddler to drop by this thread really, and preferably talk to a few people.
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@cra0zy & @leezer3 - I made that list based on the people I who made positive comments here. If @thefiddler gives you more administrative privileges than you want, don't use them - isn't that how a community project should work? I'm tempted to say everyone who regularly contributes code should be an admin - but that may be toooo chaotic.
@leezer3 - I hear you about not being happy commenting on impacts non-obvious pull requests may have on something I haven't thought of -- that's why I said I'm not sure if I'm worthy to be a full admin b/c I don't understand the full system, just certain parts - but someone has to do it. The reason I asked @thefiddler for at least push permission to assist with pull requests is b/c it's actually more dangerous to have too few people w/ privileges & then if they quit like @Frassle or are busy at school/work like @thefiddler then the project gets frozen :(
Remember github has ways to roll back after a bad commit & unit tests can help test code quickly. http://www.opentk.com/doc/chapter/0 has the simplest possible OpenTK 'game' - we can put something like that in an NUnit test project w/ the nuget NunitAdapter & it will run in Linux to test if the graphics code is working (which is actually kind of like the Examples programs that already exist) & simple things like the math classes can have traditional unit tests w/ assert statements.
I agree w/ @ilexp about being more comfortable trying to fix the OpenTK brand than trying to start a new one. Remember, even if we did a radical break away & called this "SuperTK" to something, we'd still have the existing bugs in the source code & they have to be dealt w/ either way, so I think it's better to stick w/ "OpenTK" & rehabilitate its reputation as we kill off the bugs
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@cra0zy & @leezer3 - I made that list based on the people I who made positive comments here. If @thefiddler gives you more administrative privileges than you want, don't use them - isn't that how a community project should work?
NO
First of all would you start doing some job if a random person just said "do this and that", you wouldn't.
Second, you made a list based on positive comments... that is very dumb... ask if people want to get involved, look at their GitHub history... , I think I may be the only person on the list who actually said that they were ok with helping as a maintainer.
Third, due to the fact you didn't look at anybodies history, it would be like giving admin rights randomly to the people on the street who said you look good.
Fourth, contributing code is not the same as maintaining a repo.
Fifth, after you got the mail, you should have came back to this thread and searched for 2 ~ 3 people who could be given admin rights and maintain the repo, instead of sending a list of people who don't even want to be maintainers.
I mean no offense with this comment, just speaking my mind.
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@ Everyone - Who is willing to contribute to OpenTK maintenance? I think one reason @Frassle burnt out is OpenTK is too large for one person to maintain alone. I would be willing & I have some web development experience, although it's not my strongest skill. I could help w/ unit testing the math code & to approve pull requests, although I agree w/ @leezer3 that's a little nerve racking.
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Low on time these days and already busy with maintaining another project, so I'm not in for an actual active maintainer position - sorry guys. Simply can't do it in addition. I'm just here to help get things started again.
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I'd like to remind everyone it was @Frassle that got frustrated & quit & *told *everyone else that @thefiddler was not available.
I was frustrated but I mostly quit because I don't have time for this any more. If it wasn't for a combination of work and family pressures I would of carried on working on OpenTK as best I could. I also didn't say @thefiddler wasn't available, I said he wasn't around which he hasn't been. I think his last OpenTK activity here or on the forums was nearly a year ago when Vulkan was announced, and I didn't have any obvious contact details for him and wasn't going to start a google hunt for something I didn't have time for any more.
At any rate it looks like this slightly rash exit has spurred something good to happen, so best of luck all with pushing the project forward. If I ever have time to work on stuff at home again I'll probably pop in, and once Vulkan is public I'll make sure I release the code I started putting together to do Vulkan in OpenTK. It's not finished but hopefully gives a jump start to someone else to get Vulkan working.
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@Frassle thank you. We'll need a Vulkan programmer, like @thefiddler said, it's one of the main new features in computer graphics that OpenTK needs to support.
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@andykorth would you care to join us as a maintainer, not just a contributor sir? We could use someone w/ your experience w/ the OpenTK code base, especially when judging if new pull requests might break any existing code.
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Thanks for the invitation, but I don't really have time or interest in contributing. I actually took over Pencil.Gaming, which fills the same hole as OpenTK, but takes a very different approach. I don't do windows development, so I always ignored the WinForms questions in OpenTK. My inclination was replacing all the windowing and input with GLFW, dropping some of the older and more esoteric opengl bindings, etc. I also had a pretty different approach to the math libraries: https://github.com/andykorth/Pencil.Gaming/tree/master/Pencil.Gaming/Math
But I haven't really had time for Pencil.Gaming either in the last few years.
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Okay, so far we seem to have a lot of people who are interested in having an alive and energized OpenTK, a few people who are interested in organizing things to make this happen, but nearly none who have the time to actually be hands-on maintainers or contributors. This is not ideal, but maybe we can still work with this.
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Can @andykorth or @mrhelmut or @thefiddler or @anyone tell me what software on what platform is normally used to build the OpenTK binaries? I forked the repository & rebuilt everything in Visual Studio 2013 Community on Windows 7 & was able to use the resulting binaries to run my graphics programs in Windows just fine. However, when I tried to copy the project to Linux, it ran in MonoDevelop, but failed after the first MonoDevelop rebuild ---- whereas the binaries downloaded from https://sourceforge.net/projects/opentk do allow my code rebuild perfectly in MonoDevelop in Linux as well as Windows.
Also the OpenTK source compiles just fine in Visual Studio 2013 Community on Windows 7, but not in MonoDevelop in Linux
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BTW, I have the same problem on my laptop recompiling the older code from https://sourceforge.net/projects/opentk = so at least we can say the problem is not b/c something non-cross platform has been added to the code.
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@cra0zy Hmm, I just re-tested it to get the exact error message for you & now it works in MonoDevelop even after "ReBuild All" - maybe it was a problem local to my laptop. Thanks for caring enough to write back.
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BTW, I said glControl was not working for WinForms & WPF - I found out the instructions at http://www.opentk.com/doc/chapter/2/glcontrol are wrong. That should be easy to fix once I get access to the site HTML code.
Maybe I'll make a youtube video too - a good way to stir up new positive buzz about OpenTK.
@ilexp - you're 100% right making sure OpenTK survives is the most important thing, although eventually we do need to think about what new features will be added. Like @thefiddler said, .Net Core / Vulkan is the most important thing. I'm not sure if SharpGL has much to offer; I was mostly thinking about that b/cI was having problems w/ WinForms & WPF, but now I figured out they really are working w/ the current code from github.com/opentk/opentk.
A friend at work thought we should add our own physics engine.
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Same as @cra0zy here, though to clarify: I believe we do not have admin rights to the organisation. We do however have push-access to the opentk repository, and for completeness, so does @BenjaminNitschke.
Apart from the notifications regarding this I have heard nothing.
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I got 2 messages from @thefiddler on opentk.com just recently, Jan 14, 2016
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Can you link him here? If he agrees, maybe we can add some people to the contributors - and maybe admin - team to continue development and maintenance of OpenTK as a community effort.
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I sent @thefiddler private messages on opentk.com. Maybe we'll hear back; he often takes a while to reply.
If we can continue in this main opentk/opentk repository, I want to add unit tests for the math classes & someone needs to work on WinForm / WPF support. I could not get the glControl to work in a WinForm in Visual Studio 2013 Professional & in MonoDevelop in Linux it would not even compile.
How well does OpenTK joystick code work?
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SharpGL has very good working WinForm & WPF OpenGL code - but it is Windows only. It may be possible to refactor based on their example to achieve more stable WPF & WinForm code, but find a way to still keep it cross platform.
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I did submit a PR about getting OpenTK inside Gtk 2 and 3 if you are interested in setting something with it: #320
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@cra0zy can you give me an example of how to use that GLWidget in a program? We also need a way to make it work better in Windows as well
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.. really.. did you even bother looking at it? There is an example in there...
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@cra0zy Doh! I hadn't gone all the way down to the code level yet
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BTW, I messaged @thefiddler on https://launchpad.net/~stapostol
Maybe he will say he is still maintaining OpenTK so @Frassle jumped the gun recommending giving up on OpenTK & looking into other software packages. Or maybe he will give administrative privileges to some other people so OpenTK can be maintained as a community project.
Either way, I think OpenTK has always needed more public exposure. https://github.com/mono/MonoGame has 199 contributors. https://github.com/opentk/opentk has 29 contributors, but I think that's because not as many people even know about OpenTK.
How about a OpenTK facebook page & discussion group to help people communicate about OpenTK?
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@wcdeich4 please look up the history of OpenTK, it's disastrous, @thefiddler is smart, but he is really unreliable, he just goes missing without a word to anyone. @Frassle didn't jump the gun.
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I'm a bit skeptical. Facebook doesn't seem like the typical place developers hang out to discuss tech. A forum seems like a more suitable discussion platform to me and while there already is one, it appears to be full of spam and abandoned.
Maybe an overall website relaunch could help; nothing fancy, just a prebuilt forum software and a notice with a link to the GitHub page, then some community-driven moderation and administration, and the rest will probably sort itself out over time. Then again, this is nothing we could do without @thefiddler.
Similar impression here. There's not been much activity from @thefiddler regarding the OpenTK project for a while.
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On the topic of history, this has come up before. See this thread:
http://www.opentk.com/node/3217
There's also this weird thread about imposters in our midst:
http://www.opentk.com/node/3280
and this thread, which @thefiddler did respond in:
MonoGame/MonoGame#1528
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@cra0zy & @ilexp - I'm a software engineer by day & my company hired a marketing firm to help us get more business. One conclusion was we were not getting more business b/c we did not have enough social media presence. Facebook may not be where most programmers discuss code, but I guarantee all programmers have facebook accounts & if this project is to survive in any form, it needs more people involved, we need to stop hiding our light under a bushel so to speak.
@andykorth - thanks for the links & thanks for your hard work on this project.
The original question in http://www.opentk.com/node/3280 was:
So the few people who know about OpenTK start thinking it's dead when there are no news/blog posts or new releases for over a year at a time.
Conversely, if we get the word out about OpenTK thru facebook news posts & youtube videos, we should be able to attract new programmers who are interested in C# OpenGL programming.
Now I understand in http://www.opentk.com/node/3280 there was concern about granting permissions to someone who appeared to be an imposter. The way we deal w/ that in a corporate environment is you wouldn't sign a legally binding contract w/ someone w/out first talking to them on the phone, teleconferencing & if possible meeting them in person. But if OpenTK is going to continue in it's present form with this as it's repository, @thefiddler needs some "Tech Leads" to assist him as the "Architect", again using corporate lingo. If @thefiddler is going to take year+ long vacations from this project, he needs other people to be able to approve pull requests in his absence. I don't know whom, but someone.
Sorry if I'm getting all excited about a project I only learned about 6 months ago, but I really like OpenTK. I like how it has OpenGL features up thru OpenGL 4.0 in C# + a simple cross platform GameWindow class. Granted, OpenTK has bugs. * (Does anyone know how I can post an issue about glControl not working in WinFom / WPF... again? The "issues" link on opentk.com currently has a "Four-oh-four" error. I also found a bug where if you leave lighting enabled, but don't specify texture coordinates, it crashes)* -- But as a simple Cross Platform OpenGL C# framework, OpenTK is really what I've been looking for.
I'd hate for OpenTK to end up abandoned like Tao.FreeGlut :(
But we gotta get the word out. Like they say in HR, "our most precious resource is people" - that's not just a slogan to get you thru a stressful day. W/out programmers bugs don't get fixed, new features don't get added & w/out updates any computer software will eventually curl up & die in the dust bin of history like Fortran
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@wcdeich4
I know exactly how you feel. I've been using OpenTK for 4 years now. I had fun finding bugs in real case scenarious and assisting the developers on pinpointing the problem and testing it.
Also helping people on the forum.
Unfortunately I'm afraid I lack the experience in developing libraries, bindings and whatnot is involved so I cannot directly help with commits.
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@winterhell I've forked the code & you can too (anyone/everyone can it's open source w/ no usage restrictions), so even if @thefiddler is never heard from again, we can use this code to start a new project if we want to. But I hope we hear from @thefiddler soon.
And good news, I think the WinForm & WPF stuff is probably working; I wasn't using the latest version.
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Hey guys, just jumping in as someone else who would really like to see OpenTK continue. I meant to contribute in the past, but did not get around to it - and I dont trust myself enough to commit to something like that right now either.
However, since some of you are talking about replacing the official opentk website/forum, that is something I could help with. I'm not a web developer, but I got tons of unused webspace and wouldn't mind paying for a url either. I could set up whatever forum software we think is best, and keep it free of spam and do whatever other moderation is needed.
Is this something that would be helpful at all? If you agree that the current site/forum is not going to work, switching to a new one (maybe temporarily?) will still require all currently interested parties to sign up and give it some life. It also means we have to get people who have questions to actually find the forum.
I'm very willing to set something up (and maintain it), but only if there is somewhat of a consensus that it is a good idea. ("Splitting the community" sounds like a terrible idea.)
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My experience as an open source maintainer is that it's incredibly valuable to have a central place for a community to form, help each other and discuss ideas and issues. So in general, I think setting up a forum is a great idea.
As to whether setting up a new one is a great idea as well heavily depends on whether @thefiddler shows up soon and allows us to restart the official one. But my impression is that we shouldn't count on this right now.
So..
...this sounds very good to me.
Just throwing some more ideas into the mix, you could, if you're fine with this, host this in a distinct part of your webspace with custom FTP users, so you could easily add other admins that you deem trustworthy enough at some later point in time. Given our current situation, I think it would be wise to set up any new efforts in a person-wise redundant way and have a group of people maintain everything, rather than just a single person.
Another important step in this would be to reach out to @Frassle once again in order to update the OpenTK repository notice, but since I don't want to bother him too much with this after he explicitly stepped back, it would be a good idea to wait with this until a new community site and maintained GitHub fork is determined.
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@ilexp has some great ideas!!!!!!!!!! And I love the enthusiasm from @amulware !!!!!!!!!!!
I agree a lot depends on if we hear from @thefiddler soon. I've done everything possible to contact him on github, https://launchpad.net/~stapostol & even searching for him on facebook, wo we may hear back from him sometime in the next month or so.
I think it would be better to revitalize OpenTK than to create a spin off project - there is value in name recognition.
I agree 100% we need to be "person-wise redundant"!!!! No organization can function w/ a single point of failure if 1 person quits. It does not matter if you're a fortune 500 company or a small open source software project like this!
I think when we hear from @thefiddler he'll be reasonable & probably give administrative privileges to @andykorth + @mrhelmut and maybe a few others. I really hope we hear from @thefiddler soon.
I think the most important thing is to use social media, like facebook, twitter, youtube videos to get out the word about this project. http://www.opentk.com/forum is not a bad forum per-say (although the issues link is broken) - the real problem is almost no one knows about opentk.com. The way Google works is they create a matrix of every page on the internet based on how many other websites link to your website & use Eigen vectors to rank how popular your website is. The bottom line is if no other webpages are talking about you, it's almost impossible anyone will find you in a search :(
I know @amulware is working on a Awgraphics, great new C# platform build on top of OpenTK. If @thefiddler gets back to us & grants admin privileges to a few other people, Awgraphics could actually be part of OpenTK (If @amulware wants that). I got a message from @thefiddler last month saying it would be welcome for me to add unit tests & some new math operators to OpenTK (of course that was before @Frassle left).
I love @ilexp's ideas & we could really use @amulware's support, but I think we should give @thefiddler at least a month to write back & we can use that time for planning. If we don't hear back from @thefiddler for months, then maybe this will take the form of adding OpenTK's + @amulware's Awgraphics + some other features conglomerating into one new project. But I think keeping the recognized OpenTK project alive & creating new projects connected to OpenTK would be better (Not to mention more webpages linking to eachother increases your Google Eigen vector score LOL :))
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I agree with pretty much everything you guys are saying.
As @ilexp says, I would absolutely set up a forum on its own ftp, with its own database, and I am fine giving access to a few select others. I agree that redundancy is important.
Regarding my library build on OpenTK, I'm not convinced that it really belongs into OpenTK (for those that don't know: it's an object oriented wrapper around OpenGL/OpenTK, but it also has a bunch of other shenanigans - and currently it is in a pretty bad shape and really needs a lot of cleanup/improvement/refactoring). But I am certainly open to talking about it (and while the repo doesn't specify a license, I consider it do-what-you-want anyways). Right now it seems like a better idea to keep things split though.
I can also see the point about giving it some time, and seeing if @thefiddler gets back to us. As far as I understand it though this has been tried in the past, and while some things have happened (like this official repo) he tends to drop things again after some time without letting anybody know?
So even if he gets back, it seems to me that the main priority is getting control of this repo, and maybe the website into multiple hands - or at least someone else's hands for the time being.
I agree that it is a good idea to make plans in the meantime, so that depending on whether and how @thefiddler gets back to us, we can proceed in whatever we think is best for OpenTK.
Some things that I think we should decide on:
What else?
Small aside: My blog gets some decent traffic. Once we figure things out, I would be very willing to try and get more attention for OpenTK that way, as well as through Twitter and Google+.
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Yep.
I've given this domain search website a try, here are some suggestions:
opentk.io/infoopentkproject.net/com/orgopentoolkit.ioopentklib.net/com/orgAs far as domain endings go,
.netis my obvious favourite. Opinions?I would've picked phpbb as well, but that's just because it's the only one I've ever set up and modified manually. Not a web developer here.
Nice :) If this works out, I'll try to get some attention as well.
On a different note, we need to decide how to proceed with the GitHub repository in case @thefiddler remains unreachable. I think there are essentially two ways:
If we go with the first option, I'd suggest @amulware as the organization owner, essentially to group the initial admin capabilities until we're ready to move on with the distributed approach - which will be as soon as it is decided who will be in the initial admin team.
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I think we will probably hear back from @thefiddler & he will probably be reasonable to give admin rights on the onentk.com & github.com/opentk to at least @andykorth + @mrhelmut because they've been on this project for years.
God forbid we never hear from @thefiddler we have to avoid a name conflict between the older version & the new version. It would be terrible if people google "OpenTK" & they come to www.opentk.com instead of opentkproject.net :( I think I previously suggested integrating some SharpGL features OpenTK (and making them cross platform since SharpGL is windows only). In the terrible event we never back from @thefiddler we could combine them into a new project called "SharpTK" (just a suggestion)
But there is value in staying with the existing project if at all possible. Google "SharpGL or OpenTK" & you'll find http://www.opentk.com/node/2990
Back in 2012 @thefiddler wrote "OpenTK supports OpenGL ES and is bundled with MonoDroid/MonoTouch for Android and iOS. Last time I checked SharpGL did not support OpenGL ES at all."
Apparently @thefiddler did not realize SharpGL is not even cross platform, but if OpenTK is bundled w/ MonoDroid/MonoTouch for Android and iOS, working on OpenTK gives us a lot of name recognition, as opposed to working on a new project based on the ashes of the OpenTK project.
But if we never hear from @thefiddler opentk.com & github.com/opentk/opentk will probably stay up as "fossil websites" almost forever, which pretty much would necessitate a name change if we never hear from @thefiddler
I don't know, maybe "NewOpenTK" or "CommunityOpenTK" so it's clear this is a continuation of the existing project - but I think everything will be a lot if we hear back from @thefiddler & there's a good chance we will
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I like the idea being 'NewOpenTK' or similar for distinction, but it also feels a bit awkward... In either case opentkproject(.net) seems like a fine url/organisation name to me. I also appreciate @ilexp's trust.
In either case, it would be great if we can get some of the frequent/long-time contributors to be around to help with reviewing PRs and similar. Unfortunately, all I can offer as incentive are cookies.
Speaking of incentives, do you think it is at all possible to create incentives for knowledgeable people to come (back) to the project to make major changes (whatever may be needed)?
While asking for donations may be one of the easiest ways to do so, I am not convinced that paying people works well in an open source environment. It seems that the problem is time, not money.. and converting one to the other is even in the best case icky and subjective.
Apart from putting people's name on it, I can't think of much we can do to make it tasty - except for having it be used by LOTS of people, which is sort of a vicious circle.
Anyways, just some thoughts.
@wcdeich4 I hope your optimism will pay off. I tend to take a more careful stance myself, but things would certainly be a lot easier if we could take over, instead of mutiny.
In the meantime, should I reserve the url and organisation opentkproject(.net) just in case, to make sure we got it if we need it?
(I'd be perfectly willing to give up either to someone else at any point, if you guys think it's a better idea.)
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2 things:
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I don't think opentkproject(.net) would work b/c google will confuse it with opentk.com the current site, which would remain a "fossil site" if @thefiddler remains MIA forever.
I was thinking maybe NewTK.org/com/net & keeping the name OpenTK but @cra0zy has a point, OpenTK's name has baggage - some good, but maybe even more bad :(
BTW, there is a project called "MathParserTK" (totally unrelated) - it's also abandonware, but it works good & it's C# so it should be compatible. That could certainly be merged in. Maybe "TotalTK" b/c it will have so many features or "NewTK" or.....???
I'm still optimistic we wil hear from @thefiddler, just when. We could strategize for 2 months or so, but if this is a 2 year hiatus, that would kill the project unless others intervene.
What spambots? http://www.opentk.com/forum is as quite as a ghost
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Awesome :) Glad to hear!
Agreed completely. Donations won't cut it, even if we manage to gather a significant amount.
My suggestion would be to poke them with a mention and see if they join the discussion and offer their help. We could also look around among the most active users of OpenTK - there are plenty of projects out there. Maybe some of them would be willing to join.
I don't think we should go and merge other projects into OpenTK. Neither SharpGL, nor MathParserTK, nor any other. Our first goal should be to revive and revitalize OpenTK as is. Even when putting my personal opinion on why not to merge any of these projects aside, we simply do not have a communication platform right now that would allow us to decide something like this.
Quiet might be. But also buried in spam.
I think we should wait until we've settled the naming issue.
As @cra0zy correctly pointed out, the name of OpenTK has unfortunately gathered some negative associations over the years and finding multiple "Is OpenTK dead?" posts when googling it does not help. I personally like the old name, but given our situation and the fact that we're working on a new maintenance staff with a new repository, we might as well use a new name. If we do that, our domain and organization names shouldn't link back to opentk.
Now, regarding a new name for the project, any ideas?
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How about Token framework?
get it?
o en Tk
I would really like if the new name was an anagram.
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I think the new OpenTK central should be distinctly recognized as a successor of the project.
Something akin to OpenTKReborn.com for the domain name. The project could still have the same name as before, starting with version 1.1.5. or 1.2.0.
And in the future if Fiddler blesses the project it could be made so that OpenTK.com redirects to the new place.
Flowing the current topics into the new site, probably as an 'archive' section would also be a good thing.
While some of the topics are regarding bugs in the framework that were eventually fixed, there are a lot of newbie questions that keep recurring. It would be nice that people can search there, for problems that are both solved and unsolved. At most, we can remove the duplicate topics and the redundant ones.
Ideally the recurring questions could be moved to a huge FAQ bit by bit.
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That "reborn" term in specific sounds a bit cheesy to me, but I get the idea and we could probably find something more fine-tuned along those lines.
Still, maybe we should pick a distinct name and then add something like "A community-driven OpenTK derivative" and link back to the original to draw a clear line: OpenTK may be gone, but now we're on stage 2 with project Foo. Maybe we could also fork from
opentk/opentkand rename the project later, so we'd have afoo-team/foorepo with a GitHub-generated "forked fromopentk/opentk" link beneath it.I definitely like the old name, but I'm a bit conflicted about sticking to it as well - even if it's just because it can lead to people asking "which one?" when telling someone you use OpenTK. It could also lead to irritations among new users when they google how to do X or Y and they find stuff from a framework with the same name that's very similar, but seems (?) to be something else, because there's this old domain and some different GitHub project.. you get it. A new name would also open up a new conceptual space, which might be a good thing.
But then again, I'm conflicted on this.
Incidentally, another anagram of OpenTK is "kept on". We could rename our efforts to "Kepton" and then choose some kind of elemental particle as a logo. 😄
Anyway! Joking aside:
Token. I kind of like this.
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@amulware I think developers for seedling opensource projects are going to need to be incentivized by their passion for the subject (Cross Platform C# OpenGL in our case). Imagine if we have ad banners & a few donations & your incentive for the first year comes out to only $5. Are you going to quit like @Frassle? It's also super annoying when a great free program like AnyVideoConverter realizes they're starting to have a significant user base & makes a "pro" version that is basically the same as the old free version & then only lets you continue to use 50% of the features in the new free version that were there for free just yesterday!!!! :(
The primary benefits of a project like this are sharpening our skills & gaining notoriety as a great programmer.
The beauty of OpenTK is it allows anyone to write OpenGL programs in C# that run on Windows / Linux / etc (or even VB.NET, C++/CLI on Windows only) totally free. Granted, it has some bugs, but I think that is largely due to not enough people have heard of OpenTK to get a significant development community involved to fix bugs or add features to keep up as operating systems change etc *(and developing w/ unit tests). * But that can be fixed w/ publicity on social media to find more people. And we can fight spambots w/ those "Recapta" images they use on ebay etc
Also, I'd like to remind everyone it was @Frassle that got frustrated & quit & *_told *_everyone else that @thefiddler was not available. I got 2 emails from @thefiddler on opentk.com's private email server just last month. And it doesn't even have to be "take over" - @thefiddler started this project & he's more than welcome to continue to be our "Architect" who oversees things - he just needs to appoint "Technical Leaders" beneath him who can run the daily administration when he's off doing whatever else he does. Even the existing page opentk.com can be revamped --- the only real death nail in this project is that is never had a massive social media outreach to let people know it exists. I've been programming OpenGL off & on a hobby for 10 years since college & I never heard of OpenTK before 6 months ago when I was googling "C# OpenGL" & even then I found the abandoned Tao.FreeGlut project before I found OpenTK!!! :(
@thefiddler also has an account at https://launchpad.net/~stapostol & you can find numerous places in the OpenTK code that say "(C) Stefanos Apostolopoulos.... permission is hereby granted ...." so I'm pretty sure his name is Stefanos Apostolopoulos & Launchpad.Net lists him as living in Athens, Greece. Does anyone have any ideas how we can try to contact him faster to speed things up?
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We heard from @thefiddler!!!!!!!!!!! He's going to give Administrative privileges to opentk.com & github.com/opentk/opentk to other people so it can continue as a community project!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
His message:
My Response:
Dear Stefanos Apostolopoulos,
Thank you for so much for writing back. I only have a B.S. & I often spent nights not sleeping in college, so I can't imagine what you're going thru in PhD studies. My Recommendations:
Full System Administrators (both github.com/opentk/opentk & opentk.com)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
http://www.bvecornwall.co.uk
ward.programm3r@gmail.com
http://voxxongames.github.io
http://www.adamslair.net
cra0zy@gmail.com
May the Lord bless you in your PhD studies & I look forward to your continued brilliant contributions to OpenTK in the future.
Sincerely,
William Deich
PS, I contacted "exDreamDuck" who made a nuget package for just plain OpenTK & he promised he will update the "Install-Package OpenTK" package based on the latest version github.com/opentk/opentk
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Agreed completely.
There is a reason this message resonated with a lot of people, rather than being rejected. It's not like he just made something up and it's not like we just blindly believed someone who came along to do so. Yes, @thefiddler might have been around somewhere on the internet, but the thing that really matters for OpenTK is whether or not there is someone to administrate and maintain it - which wasn't the case.
Don't get me wrong: I totally get that he has a life outside this and I don't think he is in any way obligated to be here or be available at all times. OpenTK exists in the first place because of his efforts and I'm grateful for all the work he put in there. Some projects might not even exists without OpenTK. This is not about taking over his project or talking badly about how he isn't here, but about managing the situation and keeping the project alive.
That said:
This is awesome :) Looking forward to hear from him!
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Pretty much agree with @ilexp here.
I just thought to point out that by continuing with the current repo and website, there cannot really be any re-branding. Given that there are concerns about the image of OpenTK, that may be something to think about.
On the other hand, this allows us to work on improving the existing brand image, instead of having to deal with making the distinction between the old and the new one.
I cannot tell which of these would be more advantageous for the project in the long term.
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I feel a little more comfortable with this one though. If community-driven maintenance and development turns out to work well enough, the problem will hopefully solve itself eventually. However, we should definitely spread the word about the change in project structure and its revival, as soon as that's settled and done.
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Did you ask everyone if they wanted to be maintainers/if they had time?
PS. @mrhelmut (you got wrong info on him) and me were only adding stuff related to MonoGame.
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Scratches head-
I'm not really aiming for a maintainer's position.
I'm happy to contribute small stuff when I can find and test it, but I haven't got the experience to start doing anything major, and related to this I'm not happy commenting on impacts non-obvious pull requests may have on something I haven't thought of :)
Everything I know is self-taught, and I haven't got any commercial or really wider experience....
We need thefiddler to drop by this thread really, and preferably talk to a few people.
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@cra0zy & @leezer3 - I made that list based on the people I who made positive comments here. If @thefiddler gives you more administrative privileges than you want, don't use them - isn't that how a community project should work? I'm tempted to say everyone who regularly contributes code should be an admin - but that may be toooo chaotic.
@leezer3 - I hear you about not being happy commenting on impacts non-obvious pull requests may have on something I haven't thought of -- that's why I said I'm not sure if I'm worthy to be a full admin b/c I don't understand the full system, just certain parts - but someone has to do it. The reason I asked @thefiddler for at least push permission to assist with pull requests is b/c it's actually more dangerous to have too few people w/ privileges & then if they quit like @Frassle or are busy at school/work like @thefiddler then the project gets frozen :(
Remember github has ways to roll back after a bad commit & unit tests can help test code quickly. http://www.opentk.com/doc/chapter/0 has the simplest possible OpenTK 'game' - we can put something like that in an NUnit test project w/ the nuget NunitAdapter & it will run in Linux to test if the graphics code is working (which is actually kind of like the Examples programs that already exist) & simple things like the math classes can have traditional unit tests w/ assert statements.
I agree w/ @ilexp about being more comfortable trying to fix the OpenTK brand than trying to start a new one. Remember, even if we did a radical break away & called this "SuperTK" to something, we'd still have the existing bugs in the source code & they have to be dealt w/ either way, so I think it's better to stick w/ "OpenTK" & rehabilitate its reputation as we kill off the bugs
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NO
First of all would you start doing some job if a random person just said "do this and that", you wouldn't.
Second, you made a list based on positive comments... that is very dumb... ask if people want to get involved, look at their GitHub history... , I think I may be the only person on the list who actually said that they were ok with helping as a maintainer.
Third, due to the fact you didn't look at anybodies history, it would be like giving admin rights randomly to the people on the street who said you look good.
Fourth, contributing code is not the same as maintaining a repo.
Fifth, after you got the mail, you should have came back to this thread and searched for 2 ~ 3 people who could be given admin rights and maintain the repo, instead of sending a list of people who don't even want to be maintainers.
I mean no offense with this comment, just speaking my mind.
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@ Everyone - Who is willing to contribute to OpenTK maintenance? I think one reason @Frassle burnt out is OpenTK is too large for one person to maintain alone. I would be willing & I have some web development experience, although it's not my strongest skill. I could help w/ unit testing the math code & to approve pull requests, although I agree w/ @leezer3 that's a little nerve racking.
So who is willing to be a maintainer?
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I am. Having 2 ~ 3 maintainers would be good.
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Low on time these days and already busy with maintaining another project, so I'm not in for an actual active maintainer position - sorry guys. Simply can't do it in addition. I'm just here to help get things started again.
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Agreed, same here. I posted about this in the other thread. IMO we should consolidate over there.
#339
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I was frustrated but I mostly quit because I don't have time for this any more. If it wasn't for a combination of work and family pressures I would of carried on working on OpenTK as best I could. I also didn't say @thefiddler wasn't available, I said he wasn't around which he hasn't been. I think his last OpenTK activity here or on the forums was nearly a year ago when Vulkan was announced, and I didn't have any obvious contact details for him and wasn't going to start a google hunt for something I didn't have time for any more.
At any rate it looks like this slightly rash exit has spurred something good to happen, so best of luck all with pushing the project forward. If I ever have time to work on stuff at home again I'll probably pop in, and once Vulkan is public I'll make sure I release the code I started putting together to do Vulkan in OpenTK. It's not finished but hopefully gives a jump start to someone else to get Vulkan working.
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@Frassle thank you. We'll need a Vulkan programmer, like @thefiddler said, it's one of the main new features in computer graphics that OpenTK needs to support.
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@andykorth would you care to join us as a maintainer, not just a contributor sir? We could use someone w/ your experience w/ the OpenTK code base, especially when judging if new pull requests might break any existing code.
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Thanks for the invitation, but I don't really have time or interest in contributing. I actually took over Pencil.Gaming, which fills the same hole as OpenTK, but takes a very different approach. I don't do windows development, so I always ignored the WinForms questions in OpenTK. My inclination was replacing all the windowing and input with GLFW, dropping some of the older and more esoteric opengl bindings, etc. I also had a pretty different approach to the math libraries: https://github.com/andykorth/Pencil.Gaming/tree/master/Pencil.Gaming/Math
But I haven't really had time for Pencil.Gaming either in the last few years.
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@mrhelmut any interest in helping maintain OpenTK?
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Okay, so far we seem to have a lot of people who are interested in having an alive and energized OpenTK, a few people who are interested in organizing things to make this happen, but nearly none who have the time to actually be hands-on maintainers or contributors. This is not ideal, but maybe we can still work with this.
Note: As @WardBenjamin said, let's move this over to issue #339
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Can @andykorth or @mrhelmut or @thefiddler or @anyone tell me what software on what platform is normally used to build the OpenTK binaries? I forked the repository & rebuilt everything in Visual Studio 2013 Community on Windows 7 & was able to use the resulting binaries to run my graphics programs in Windows just fine. However, when I tried to copy the project to Linux, it ran in MonoDevelop, but failed after the first MonoDevelop rebuild ---- whereas the binaries downloaded from https://sourceforge.net/projects/opentk do allow my code rebuild perfectly in MonoDevelop in Linux as well as Windows.
Also the OpenTK source compiles just fine in Visual Studio 2013 Community on Windows 7, but not in MonoDevelop in Linux
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BTW, I have the same problem on my laptop recompiling the older code from https://sourceforge.net/projects/opentk = so at least we can say the problem is not b/c something non-cross platform has been added to the code.
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What was the error? Did you remember to add .config file?
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@cra0zy Hmm, I just re-tested it to get the exact error message for you & now it works in MonoDevelop even after "ReBuild All" - maybe it was a problem local to my laptop. Thanks for caring enough to write back.
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BTW, I said glControl was not working for WinForms & WPF - I found out the instructions at http://www.opentk.com/doc/chapter/2/glcontrol are wrong. That should be easy to fix once I get access to the site HTML code.
Maybe I'll make a youtube video too - a good way to stir up new positive buzz about OpenTK.
@ilexp - you're 100% right making sure OpenTK survives is the most important thing, although eventually we do need to think about what new features will be added. Like @thefiddler said, .Net Core / Vulkan is the most important thing. I'm not sure if SharpGL has much to offer; I was mostly thinking about that b/cI was having problems w/ WinForms & WPF, but now I figured out they really are working w/ the current code from github.com/opentk/opentk.
A friend at work thought we should add our own physics engine.
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I got merging rights now.
I am busy for the next 4 days(I have 2 exams), right after that I will start going over issues and PRs.
In the meantime I will remove the notice of leave.
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Is there any update on the topic of shared admin rights and creating a core group of admins for the future?
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@amulware, @wcdeich4, @andykorth and me got admin rights over the repo.
Anyone know any news about updating the website (or should I say, cleaning the forums...)?
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If anyone got news, I'd say its one of you three. Was there any word from @thefiddler or did you just get the admin rights without further comment?
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I got admin rights with no comment, that is just got a mail from GitHub that I have been invited to join opentk group.
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Same as @cra0zy here, though to clarify: I believe we do not have admin rights to the organisation. We do however have push-access to the opentk repository, and for completeness, so does @BenjaminNitschke.
Apart from the notifications regarding this I have heard nothing.
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He had push access from before.
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Gitter room created https://gitter.im/opentk/opentk, any further discussion on this subject should probably be done there.