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Path to raku #89

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commented Aug 17, 2019

The implementation of #81

Initial version of the name change PR
Please note, this is only the initial version of the PR, intended for
internal discussion / augmentation before being turned into a real
("draft") PR, for wider discussion / voting.
@taboege

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commented on PATH-TO-RAKU.md in 07c423e Aug 13, 2019

The .code method already exists in some classes (e.g. CallFrame) and could conceivably be used in modules. Why not rename .perl (print this so that perl6 instands it) to .raku (print this so that raku understands it)? I see no reason not to, except that we're not yet used to it referring to a language :-)

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replied Aug 14, 2019

For me, the .code method makes more sense to me than .perl or .raku. It's name is more universal and therefor more easily understood. There is no need to be self referential here.

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replied Aug 14, 2019

👍 on .code. But we need to add changing the already existing .code methods to something else. It's actually only in two classes, so it wouldn't be a big deal.

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replied Aug 14, 2019

I agree with @nxadm. .code just feels better to me, but the fact that .code method exists in other classes is kinda unfortunate :S

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replied Aug 14, 2019

Yeah, .code is nicely generic, I like that too. But that is why a .code attribute is meanwhile also used by module authors (← contains a sizable amount of false positives) to denote:

  • HTTP status or native library error codes,
  • BSON type byte,
  • XML source code,
  • callbacks.

So .code vs. .raku vs. … also needs to be weighed against the

[...] existing scripts continue to work without change

part in "Technical Changes". .code means some unbitrotting, .raku doesn't.

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replied Aug 15, 2019

Clearly should be .EVAL-able ;-).

@taboege

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commented on PATH-TO-RAKU.md in 07c423e Aug 13, 2019

Not sure if this comment zooms in too much for the scope of this document, but the IRC channels on freenode are my primary community meeting point and they have to be renamed as well. I just want to note that luckily we can forward #perl6 to #raku (for new joins at least, not for messages) using +if #raku channel modes. freenode++

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commented on 07c423e Aug 13, 2019

Thanks @lizmat for writing that.

wrt. the mascot, Camelia has p6 drawn on it, wondering if it should be replaced with raku or rk.

r   u
 a k

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replied Aug 13, 2019

IRC channels?

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replied Aug 14, 2019

Thanks @lizmat for writing that.

wrt. the mascot, Camelia has p6 drawn on it, wondering if it should be replaced with raku or rk.

r   u
 a k

Most people miss the P6 letters anyway, so it could be left there for historical reasons. If it's decided to remove the P6 reference, I don't see the need to add the raku letters. Less is more.

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replied Aug 14, 2019

What about “use v6”?

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replied Aug 14, 2019

Will it be Raku v6.d or Raku vd or Raku v1.d or what?

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replied Aug 14, 2019

What happens to NQP, will it become NQR?

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replied Aug 14, 2019

@hythm7 :

wrt. the mascot, Camelia has p6 drawn on it, wondering if it should be replaced with raku or rk.

r   u
 a k

I was the one who has the mascotte made into 1,000 copies of the stuffed toy and I do not want to explain that it has cost a lot of time, energy, frustration and money, and since I still have over 500 of them, I am not planning on having another batch made. Not for the foreseeable future. In case of a namechange, I think I just have to throw them all away, burn them, turn them into compost, whatever. :-(

I think no changes required for the mascot even after name change. There is a nice suggestion mentioned above to leave the mascot as is and the p 6 "could be seen as lasting tribute (easter egg) to the origin of Raku".

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replied Aug 14, 2019

For the reddit community it looks like raiph already has https://www.reddit.com/r/raku/ (appears to have briefly been about pottery) secured.

EDIT: Meaning that it is under control of this community. It was barely used and raiph convinced them to transfer it over.

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replied Aug 14, 2019

I was the one who has the mascotte made into 1,000 copies of the stuffed toy and I do not want to explain that it has cost a lot of time, energy, frustration and money, and since I still have over 500 of them, I am not planning on having another batch made. Not for the foreseeable future. In case of a namechange, I think I just have to throw them all away, burn them, turn them into compost, whatever. :-(

No, you don't. Most likely Camelia will not change. And if it does, you'll have collection items that will interest many hackers.

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replied Aug 14, 2019

What happens to NQP, will it become NQR?

Not Quite Ready.

@AlexDaniel

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commented on PATH-TO-RAKU.md in 07c423e Aug 13, 2019

There's also .pod6 extension that we currently use. It has both “pod” in it, which really doesn't mean much to most people, and the 6 which will be mostly obsolete after the rename. Maybe .rakudoc? A bit too long, but it seems to work fine for .asciidoc so why not… I don't know. I think it is also possible to defer it for now.

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replied Aug 13, 2019

The documentation format is also called Pod 6, so it should probably be coordinated with whether that name is changed.

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replied Aug 13, 2019

My thoughts on that, but not much of an opinion either way: Pod 6 is much more like a revision of Pod and is very similar in use and appearance, there is an active attempt at some compatibility, and it's referred to as just Pod in various places. But it is not 100% compatible. It's just not that important comparatively, you currently don't find much about either Pod or Pod 6 on google without using the language name, and nobody is ever really in a situation to discover what Pod or Pod 6 are without the context of the languages. So the only reason to do such would be for consistency in naming or to better distinguish itself from Pod in the future.

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replied Aug 14, 2019

.rkpod?: it's pod after all, a format unknown and unpopular outside of the Perl world.
.rkdoc? This would make more sense if it was md based as expectations would be to be read on the console with less or cat without a pod parser in your head.

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replied Aug 14, 2019

Ugh, no. Let's keep Pod6. It's a slang, included but different from Perl 6/Raku. Are we going to call the regex slang rkegex? Or the quote slang rkuote? It's not big deal. It does not have Perl in the name, it's just a six-ish version of plain old documentation.

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replied Aug 14, 2019

.rkp or .rp?

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replied Aug 14, 2019

pod6 sound very out of place to me for a language called raku. Pod is werid, the 6 makes it even weirder. (Now I think about it is even weird for Perl 6.)

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commented on PATH-TO-RAKU.md in 07c423e Aug 14, 2019

I think it would be a good time to take care of executable name in another aspect. Rakudo must not occupy raku name if we really anticipate other compilers for the language. It must install as rakudo and optionally symlink to raku.

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replied Aug 14, 2019

Every implementation can supply a raku executable (it's actually an implementation of raku). Package managers and the 'alternatives' system can the select which one will be the first in PATH. This is pretty much how Java and python implementations work.

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replied Aug 14, 2019

My point was to make the life of package managers easier.

@vrurg

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commented on PATH-TO-RAKU.md in 07c423e Aug 14, 2019

I will prepare another PR for this part.

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commented on PATH-TO-RAKU.md in 07c423e Aug 14, 2019

Also popular: a 'p6' prefix (or suffix).

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commented on PATH-TO-RAKU.md in 07c423e Aug 14, 2019

Will it continue with the “p” and the “6” on the wings?

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replied Aug 14, 2019

We can add a whisker to the p to make it look like an R and delete a part of the 6 to make it look like a k.

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replied Aug 14, 2019

I ❤️ Camelia; let's keep her as she is, as a reminder of where she came from :)

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replied Aug 15, 2019

@karenetheridge That's the plan. No changes to the wing pattern either :-)

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commented on PATH-TO-RAKU.md in 07c423e Aug 14, 2019

We'll need to open an issue for this. It might be more extensive than that, including the fact that we need to change. We can add an issue for this in the doc repo, and work on that.

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commented on PATH-TO-RAKU.md in 07c423e Aug 14, 2019

In the case of documentation, we might want to keep the two sites at the same time for people that keep using old versions of perl 6. We would do this redirect eventually, in a 1-2 year time frame.

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commented on PATH-TO-RAKU.md in 07c423e Aug 14, 2019

Will we keep using the "use v6;" pragma? After all, there's no way to mistake raku for perl now.

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commented on PATH-TO-RAKU.md in e4461ed Aug 14, 2019

I don't see why 6. must go away. As far as I remember, raku in rakudo came as a consonant to roku which is 6. This would also be a way to keep Raku's DNA.

Switching to uppercase letters though coincide with rakudo/rakudo#3112 which is yet to be accepted, but proposes CORE::<uppercase-revision>:: namespace.

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replied Aug 14, 2019

@vrurg So, I see it like this. Currently we don't have proper versioning of the language, and instead we use -errata branches (which are changing all the time, even if the fixes are minor). That doesn't sound right to me, especially if we subscribe to the idea that there could be more than one implementation. So in the end we might need minor versions, or something, and I don't like any short-sighted attempts to change the situation without taking other things into account. As for the letters, if we do something like 6.d.2, then question is why not just go full semver, and if so, then why are we using letters at all (even if it's allowed by semver, nobody really does it the way we do).

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replied Aug 14, 2019

This turns into a wider discussion. I'll open a new topic on this.

@vrurg

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commented on PATH-TO-RAKU.md in 07c423e Aug 14, 2019

There was a move to use .t6 for tests. Considering that some IDEs/editors determine file type exclusively by the extension and do so not even project-wide but system-wide (i.e. whatever is project's main language, .t would always be treated as, say, perl5), I think a proposal for this extension would make sense too. .rkt belongs to Racket language. .tr perhaps?

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replied Aug 14, 2019

.rt?

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replied Aug 14, 2019

.rt reminds of RealTime Player. Yet, .tr follows the patter of .t6. But that's very minor question, I just wanted it to be mentioned, not resolved yet. :)

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replied Aug 14, 2019

.t is a funny extension. It is not perl-specific to begin with - it can technically be any language that is given in the shebang or by the program that is expected to run them. But Perl and Raku do seem to be highest users of it. The only harm of reusing .t in my opinion is that editors and GitHub have a hard time classifying what language they belong to. Personally I have no qualms with multiple languages using .t, provided they are okay with that potential problem.

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commented on PATH-TO-RAKU.md in 07c423e Aug 14, 2019

It's worth noting that the more general entity is already called "Yet Another Society". YAS is currently home to both "The Perl Foundation" and "The Parrot Foundation". It might be worth the legwork of setting up a separate "Raku Foundation" under YAS.

It would probably be a good idea for you to open up a dialog with TPF to help them understand your intent and find out what TPF is able/willing to provide.

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commented Sep 13, 2019

Plans are already underway to have a Perl 6 Core Summit.

But are there any hints of having sponsors who pay for attendance like PTS? I haven't been footing that transatlantic trip or hotel, and if the conference turns into a "whoever can afford to reach destination X" it sort of loses its meaning of having the right people in the same room. Then again I don't know that I'll be able to get paid time off work for a conference lacking perl 5 presence either, so maybe that doesn't really matter.

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commented Sep 13, 2019

@ugexe:

I haven't been footing that transatlantic trip or hotel

The idea is to have this with similar conditions to the Perl Core Summit, which means that travel and lodging should be sponsored if so needed.

Then again I don't know that I'll be able to get paid time off work for a conference lacking perl 5 presence either

That is a problem that I hope will go away in the future.

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commented Sep 13, 2019

Plans are already underway to have a Perl 6 Core Summit.

But are there any hints of having sponsors who pay for attendance like PTS? I haven't been footing that transatlantic trip or hotel, and if the conference turns into a "whoever can afford to reach destination X" it sort of loses its meaning of having the right people in the same room. Then again I don't know that I'll be able to get paid time off work for a conference lacking perl 5 presence either, so maybe that doesn't really matter.

I, for one, am willing to personally make a substantial donation, possibly enough to sponsor an attendee who is not myself, to the Perl 6 Core Summit, conditional on the language rename being implemented.

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Mostly good, but just think filetype and a few other things should not be in this. Or a listing of suggestions that people have given, and make it clear this hasn't been decided yet?


### Extensions

The extension `.rk` for scripts, `.rkm` for modules, and `.rd` for

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I agree with some others that the filenames should not be part of this pull request, and are better left to another place, where we can have a nice listing of possibilities and decide which out of those we think work best. Or this could be changed to just be suggestions for filenames.

solutions/language/PATH-TO-RAKU.md Outdated Show resolved Hide resolved

@AlexDaniel AlexDaniel requested a review from samcv Sep 15, 2019

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Moving my vote to Approve after the recent changes 👍

@lizmat lizmat requested a review from JJ Sep 16, 2019

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OK, here's the status of this PR. First it used to propose specific extensions, but then there was a slight disagreement on which ones to use so the PR was adjusted to say that extensions are going to change, but to which ones will be decided later.

However, @jnthn initially indicated that it is important to decide on extensions as part of this PR, which he now confirmed yesterday:

<jnthn> AlexDaniel: I feel extensions should be decided in the rename PR; there's already been a discussion issue on the topic, and I don't care to have to read/follow another such discussion; I don't know what's to gain by delaying it.

So as I see it, the PR is currently unfinished. See #101 for a longer (and noisy) discussion about extensions.

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commented Sep 16, 2019

I have opened #106 instead of #101 for making the final decision on extensions.

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Let's go ahead with this.

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commented Sep 20, 2019

I would duplicate here voting results for extensions:

  1. .raku, rakumod, rakudoc, rakutest – 11 votes
  2. support both .raku and .rk families – 7 votes
  3. .ra, .ram, .rad, .rat - 5 votes
  4. .rk, .rkm, .rkd, .t - 2 votes
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commented Sep 20, 2019

@jnthn @lizmat please do something about the extensions. The voting above is simply to provide you with more data, but you can choose any of the options (see #106 for discussion and more ideas).

@lizmat lizmat dismissed stale reviews from samcv, JJ, and masak via e0185a4 Sep 21, 2019

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JJ approved these changes Sep 21, 2019
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Let's do it.

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