Spring 2023 "F2F"

[Westbrook]

It's been quite a while now, but it seems like it would be a good idea for us to gather and discuss some of the really exciting proposals and specs that have been coming up or coming together in support of new functionality in the world of web components.

In concert with the WCCG, I'd like to propose we work toward making something happen the first half of April 2023. For out part, having the discussion is the most important part of the event, but we'd be interested in your thoughts on live vs virtual vs hybrid sessions as well.

Happy to take suggestions on Agenda content below:

• the WCCG has an early list of topics that I'll share in a comment below, and would be highly interested in sponsoring some pre-breakout conversations around them to ensure the highest level of productivity at the F2F itself.
• there's been past conversation around making F2Fs quarterly that would be great to get into the agenda as well

I've created this poll to gather the availability of interested parties through the month of April: https://www.when2meet.com/?18702051-ib5Wi

As we'll be virtual there is room for spreading the conversation out over more than one day, but please try to mark availabilities of at least 90 minutes each so we can find sizable chunks of time to get as deep into the various APIs we'd like to target as possible.

[justinfagnani]

I hope we're all back from the holiday, new years, and layoff season and can look forward to our spring schedules. For the most productive meeting, I think we'd love to see implementors like @mfreed7 @annevk @rniwa @emilio and more there. Is there any interest?

[annevk]

I would be happy to attend. If it's virtual it'd have to accommodate UTC+1 for me. I'm interested in:

• Specific accessibility pain points and general roadmap planning around accessibility-focused features.
• Web Components pain points in general.

I would love it if as homework we could all look through the existing Custom Elements and Shadow DOM issues (see links at https://github.com/WICG/webcomponents#readme) and nominate one-or-two for discussion at the F2F to see if we can make some progress on those as well.

[justinfagnani]

@annevk glad your interested in attending. I agree with those two points my self. One more that's top of mind for me:

• Consider how every feature interacts with declarative shadow DOM, especially a11y

And for homework, I know we've lightly tried to do some of this before, and at some points we've had nice presentations prepared, and tighter agendas worked out. I wonder if it would be helpful to have a pre-meeting a few weeks before to go through issues and find the issues to nominate and estimate their time boxes?

[annevk]

I'd be happy to make some time for a pre-meeting.

[leobalter]

Consider how every feature interacts with declarative shadow DOM, especially a11y

I'm biased. This should be the main topic and yet it connects well to the points from @annevk.

Completion for Declarative Shadow DOM seems like the main pain point because it's too close, but not there yet. As mentioned, a11y capabilities are part of this discussion.

I'm looking forward to discussing it with this group.

[annevk]

cc @smaug----

[mfreed7]

I'm happy to attend, as long as it's virtual. Travel is tougher than it used to be.

+1 to pre-work including topics to discuss. I'd add:

• scoped custom element registries

@xiaochengh

[bkardell]

👋 I am interested and will attend, perhaps one or more others from Igalia may as well depending on a few things

[Westbrook]

For topics, we might find the Web Components Community Groups report from 2022 a good starting point.

When presenting this content at TPAC we focused primarily on some APIs needed for browser parity, that have happily made some really great progress as far as implementation. FACE (Form-Associated Custom Elements), Constructable Style Sheets, CSS Modules, and Imperative slots have all seem massive progress in the intervening months, there may no longer be further discussion needed in these areas....

As part of the report, the community group saw a great need for closure/alignment on specifications for Cross-root Aria, Scoped Registries, and Declarative Shadow DOM. DSD looks like it's ready to go, the team at WebKit has been putting some great work into it and it's on by default in their Tech Preview 162. Scoped Registries and Cross-root Aria have more work required. Speaking not as the WCCG chair, but for Adobe, my employer, these two specs are of high interest and import to products/features that are shipping to users today and new products/features that will be rolling out in the coming years, if that's of any use in putting extra fuel on the fire.

• A specification for Cross-root Aria has been making the rounds in the AOM Working Group and has been well received by implementors of various engines in that context. It would be great to drive this forward, find any remaining holes in the idea, and push for official spec text/implementation agreement.
• For Scoped Registries, Chrome has issued an Intent to Prototype. As that moves forward, it would be good to make sure we're officially in agreement around final open questions on the specification.

Beyond those, the various API covered in the WCCG report are all sourced from actual consumers of the web components APIs, so it may be useful to find time in a F2F to work towards closing the various "open questions" sections there in. In particular, if there are "dissenting opinions" there in that can be represented by specific implementors, it would be great to ensure that we've made time before/during/after the session to ensure those positions are fully captured and shared with the broader community.

[sashafirsov]

Will be glad to be in-person. Subjects of interest are * Declarative Custom Element * Fully functional declarative template <https://discourse.wicg.io/t/proposal-fully-functional-declarative-template/6115> * Declarative Data Sources and transformations and other parts of Declarative Web Application stack. Would provide the PoCs on the concepts and business needs/use cases. -s

…

On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 12:26 PM Justin Fagnani ***@***.***> wrote: I hope we're all back from the holiday, new years, and layoff season and can look forward to our spring schedules. For the most productive meeting, I think we'd love to see implementors like @mfreed7 <https://github.com/mfreed7> @annevk <https://github.com/annevk> @rniwa <https://github.com/rniwa> @emilio <https://github.com/emilio> and more there. Is there any interest? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#978 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AA6LG2P7M2EFK3X77J6WOQLWT3SPJANCNFSM6AAAAAASUTRLKY> . You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[smaug----]

I could try to attend, I think I'd prefer remote meeting.
One possible topic would be selection + shadow DOM, https://github.com/mfreed7/shadow-dom-selection
That is a good proposal, but there might be still issues in some related APIs, like how copy-paste should work etc.

[nolanlawson]

Happy to attend, interested in Declarative Shadow DOM and all a11y issues as well. Beyond cross-root ARIA, there is also the intersection of ElementInternals and ARIAMixin which is quite interesting: whatwg/html#8544 (comment)

[thescientist13]

Would be up for attending as well, but might have to be remote depending on location of the F2F.

[zcorpan]

Interested

[rniwa]

Meeting in April sounds good to me. Is it gong to be in-person? If so, where are we thinking?

[emilio]

I'm interested as well, but would likely prefer to attend virtually.

[justinfagnani]

Given the number of people who want to attend only virtually, I wonder if we want to hold a pure virtual meeting so that we can optimize just for that experience and don't even worry about finding a location.

Unless, some people really want to see each other face-to-face and maybe they happen to be close to each other?

[caridy]

I'm interested as well, but would likely prefer to attend virtually.

[Westbrook]

Seems like the majority people are interested in attending virtually, so while it can be interesting working out a hybrid event, let's meet virtually this time and help have everyone on the same footing as we discuss the important topics for which we'll be gathering.

I've created this poll to gather the availability of interested parties through the month of April: https://www.when2meet.com/?18702051-ib5Wi

As we'll be virtual there is room for spreading the conversation out over more than one day, but please try to mark availabilities of at least 90 minutes each so we can find sizable chunks of time to get as deep into the various APIs we'd like to target as possible.

Does it make sense to try and find at least find 3-4 times we can get a quorum together for 90 or more minutes that we can gather and dig in?

[Westbrook]

We've got 10 responses to https://www.when2meet.com/?18702051-ib5Wi for the about 15 or so respondents to this issue to date. If you or someone you know wants to take part in these sessions, please get them to share times they are available, or they'll be stuck working what's best for the group. It would be great if we could wrap scheduling up by the 1st of March. As of right now the days that look the best are:

1. Monday, April 17th, 12pm - 4pm ET
2. Tuesday, April 18th, 12pm - 4pm ET
3. Wednesday, April 12th, 1pm - 4pm ET
4. Thursday, April 13th, 1pm - 4pm ET
5. Monday, April 3rd, 12pm - 2pm ET
6. Tuesday, April 4th, 12pm - 2pm ET

How are we feeling on multiple sessions to ensure we have enough time for everything?

[nolanlawson]

Tuesday, April 16th, 12pm - 4pm ET

@Westbrook April 16th is a Sunday. Did you mean Tuesday, April 18th?

[rniwa]

Perhaps we can have sessions on Monday, April 17th and Thursday, April 20th or Friday, April 21st? That would allow everyone to attend at least one of the sessions.

[Westbrook]

@Westbrook April 16th is a Sunday. Did you mean Tuesday, April 18th?

Sorry updated.

[rniwa]

I suggest

• Monday, April 17th 12pm to 4pm ET.
• Thursday, April 20th 12pm to 4pm ET.

[Westbrook]

@rniwa agreed!

I'm not sure if there's a more official calendar than that of the Web Components CG, so I've added those events there:

• Monday, April 17th 12pm to 4pm ET (link)
• Thursday, April 20th 12pm to 4pm ET (link)

I added the handful of people to the event on this thread who's contact info I already have, and would be pleased to do the same with the rest of you. The meetings are in a Google Calendar, so they always get associated to a Meet video call, happy to try to set up something else if that would preferable, but please let me know ASAP if some effort needs to be put into finding an alternate call strategy.

Preparation

This leaves us with about 4 weeks until the sessions, and a lot of great topics to discuss. Here's a list of all the points from above (call me out if I've missed any):

• scoped custom element registries @mfreed7
• Specific accessibility pain points and general roadmap planning around accessibility-focused features. @annevk
  • Cross root aria
  • Other current proposals
• ElementInternals and ARIA Mixin @nolanlawson
• Consider how every feature interacts with declarative shadow DOM, especially a11y @justinfagnani
• Selection API @smaug----
• Web Components pain points in general. @annevk
• declarative APIs (components, templates, data stores) @sashafirsov
• Shadow DOM issues (here and here) @annevk
• Custom Element issues (here and here) @annevk

We could also draw further discussion from the WCCG' 2022 report.

It would be most productive if we could get some "topic owners" (I've listed roughly who originally proposed the topic above) that could at least introduce the subject for discussion or possibly even gather some people for a pre-F2F-F2F/email threads so as to grease the skids of recent development and possible decisions. Thoughts?

[annevk]

Thanks @Westbrook! I have a couple other topics if there's interest:

• Mutation callbacks for node tree changes to children.
• DOM parts API https://github.com/rniwa/webcomponents/blob/add-dom-parts-proposal/proposals/DOM-Parts.md. In particular focusing on these three things and building a v1 if there's rough agreement:
  • APIs for creating parts.
  • { node, parts } = node.cloneWithParts({ deep, parts }) (note that this is generic).
  • A name that doesn't conflict with shadow parts. Perhaps node segments?
• Declarative custom elements. (Might overlap with @sashafirsov's topic.)
• FACE submit buttons.
• FACE labels.

[keithamus]

I am definitely interested in DOM parts API!

[xiaochengh]

scoped custom element registries @mfreed7

I'll be talking about this topic, as I'm prototyping it in Blink.

[Westbrook]

@annevk does "Mutation callbacks for node tree changes to children" relate to the issues in "Children changed callback" or is there other background you could share on that subject?

@xiaochengh based on your work so far, are specific questions remaining to dig into or if there's a different shape this part of the sessions should take.

Do people have thoughts on how much time we should roughly appoint to each topic, based on open questions, existing proposals, etc.? Seems like it would be useful to start shaping a schedule for the two days, and confirming if any pre-meetings would be needed to ensure discussions as a group are productive to moving these specs forward.

[justinfagnani]

I think some of the topics, especially DOM Parts and Declarative Custom Elements, are quite large. Should we do some agenda setting within those topics to try to use the time we allot to them?

[renoirb]

Shoot. I wrote here something about lazy loading component, moved it there. Oops!