Balance: Steepen the scaling of damage with tier, bringing it closer to the scaling of HP and mitigating the issue of dying too fast in human space. #9851
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bene-dictator
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Isnt cutting it in half a bit overkill? Wouldnt 30% or smth be enough? |
It'd need to be reduced by more than this to match T2. This is a reasonable starting point for testing either way. If it turns out to be too much or too little, I can adjust accordingly. |
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I dont like slowing down mining honestly, so what about giving lasers minable dmg that corresponds to old hull dmg and not touching the mining laser's mining/prospecting stats? |
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How does this affect balance with other weapons between T1 and T2? For example, T1.2 Pulse Turrets are basically comparable to Heavy Laser Turrets, but with this change they're nearly twice as good while also being smaller and more efficient. It seems to me that this needs to look at all weapons between T1 and T2 in order to maintain tier relationships properly, or we instead just buff T1 ship HP. |
I am aware that I'll also need to adjust weapons between T1 and T2, and probably also scale up T2.5 weapons (if current T2 is becoming the baseline). This is a draft PR, just implementing this change for human space and the aliens that appear in the FW campaign, for initial testing. |
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I don't think we should compare the pulse turret to the heavy laser turret, instead it's supposed to be a better quad blaster turret, but in practice its somehow worse dps wise per outfit space (whilst being bigger??) If we are to affect it, it should definitely be by a smaller amount or combat will just take ages (and we'll have to rebalance the wand-uhai fights too), and I'd advise leaving that for another PR. Human space is large enough of a scope to test already. |
Does anyone think e.g. Korath or Remnant combat times are too short? Because this will extend them even further, and you'll have to adjust the weapons on essentially every faction but the Automata and perhaps Bunrodea.
I think that just goes to show that human dps isn't the issue, it's the low HPs of human ships that are making combat times so short. And cutting human dps even more will increase combat times vs even moderately higher tier ships even further, such as Hai and Korath ones. |
In human-human combat, these are equivalent in this sense, so there's no way to say that "it's X rather than Y" - it's the ratio that's the issue, and that's a result of both. Doubling human ships' HP would have the same effect as halving weapon DPS when only considering human-human combat, except that it would further devalue the already-terrible human regen, whereas this makes it more valuable. As far as whether it's human DPS or human ship HP that's out of line though, it certainly seems to me that human T1 weapons are often far more damaging than the weapons of the T1.2 Hai or the T1.5 Remnant, especially in the case of humanity's missiles. So, I really don't think "human dps isn't the issue" is an accurate statement.
Personally, I think T1.5 combat is probably about right, and T2 combat can sometimes get too long (the Sestor fights in particular), so I'd say it might be better to take T1.5 as a baseline for this rather than T2, and make T2 combat slightly faster. |
If anything, it makes sense for early-game combat to be slower than later-game combat to give newer players time to get used to it. |
Not really. As the Hai are T1.2, barely a step above human tech, the fact that they have balanced combat times with similar weapon dps to human weapons means that we should bring human stats more in line proportionally to Hai ones. The biggest discrepancy there is HP, not dps.
Human missiles have received buffs multiple times in an attempt to make missile weapons more competitive, which alien missiles didn't receive. And given the large spread of human weapons, and how few weapons the Hai have, I think it makes sense that there are a handful of human weapons that outclass things like Pulse Cannons even if the latter are better on average than most human weapons. In any case, I think a game where plasma turrets and particle cannons still see some use is much more fun than one where they're immediately outclassed by a factor of 2+ by weapons you can get within ten minutes if you know where to go. |
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I don't agree with upping human hp. Currently hp is the only thing that makes sense with the tiers, being a clear increase as you go up. Weapons are the odd one out with human weapons specifically being much better both due to high damage and sheer versatility compared to every other race, only getting outclassed when you get to tier 2 weapons and even then the particle cannon and some missiles can still compete. I do think 50% is too much of a decrease and it will be better to eventually make it smaller, but even 10%-20% would be welcome to make human combat last a little longer. Plus currently no other races really need rebalancing if human weapons get a downgrade, since the humans only fight the Pug, so as long as the decrease doesn't make human weapons COMPLETELY inferior to Hai or Remnant weapons (which are both mediocre at best currently and could use the upgrade this would give to them) I don't see why other races would need to be adjusted at all, or at best only need minor adjustments. At best I could see the Gegno needing to be looked at to make sure their tier 0.6 or whatever weapons aren't better than new human ones, but I have not really played with Gegno stuff at all so meh. |
you forgot about the kor sestor at the end of wanderer campaign. Is the compliant about battles being to short in reference to player vs. human NPC or human NPC vs. human NPC? My vote would be to increase HP but I'm not going down that road again. If human NPC ships and alien NPC ships rarely meet, why would need to start rebalancing other races?
Looking at my list I don't see any logical reason you would need to adjust any other races. |
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The reason is that human weapon become way worse if we dont touch anything else - I wouldnt say it's that big of a deal tho, but I did like that most outfits in the game were comparable. |
The Humans are meant to be massively outgunned by the Sestor, so lowering human weapons damage would actually make that fight make even more sense why the player is needed to run off to Zenith.
The only case where human weapons being made weaker means the Pugs tier 1 weapons might need adjusting too, otherwise it might make the Pug fights too hard.
The Exiles are also meant to outgun humanity, so making the Exiles that jump into those systems overpower human ships even more only helps show why they loot humanity and why the Syndicate has so few jump drives.
The Lunarium is meant to be the underdogs, so having them get weaker weapons from the humans would only help that underdog feeling. Increasing human HP does the opposite of all this, making humanity stronger and making the few aliens they fight have less of an advantage against humanity, meaning the lore on how the Exiles and Sestor are meant to outgun humanity make less sense, rather than lowering weapons damage which only makes that lore more true. My reason increasing HP isn't the way to go, and I know you said you weren't going down that road but just wanted to point this out. |
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Good point with the korath vs human, prob will have the benefit side effect of making that passive farming harder |
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I'm not picking sides. Both sides of this discussion have very valid points. Both options come with big pros but equally as big cons. The common thread is that using either option messes with the precious tier system, and as pointed out, will cause ripple effects. There is another ripple effect not mentioned, with nerfing weapons. Some players use higher end human weapons in their ship builds even as far as late game. If you nerf all human weapons you remove the option of using them later. Would this be a pro or con? The big question is, what is the real issue? human battles are to short I highly doubt players are referring to whats happening between the NPC's. I bet the complaint stems from "I die too quickly".
Any of the above ideas could be tweaked to only focus on early game and human space. |
I don't think this is a reason to make any changes as this is already the case.
Same here. Korath ships already overpower human ships to a degree that makes sense.
Only if we want to say that going from T1 to T1.2 means a full doubling in weapon DPS.
Coalition civilian ships are already probably going to need buffs to compete with Heliarch ships in the campaign. Halving T1 DPS won't help with that. |
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Even with those other changes you suggested, one still dies super quickly to an argosy with missiles (or just so many things in general) |
Personally I see the continued usage of human weapons as a common occurrence anywhere beyond Hai space as an -absolute- sign that human weapons are simply far too strong. Even if you just desire a specific role/space usage combo that isn't present elsewhere (like particle cannon range and pushback together), you should be sacrificing overall stats (and DPS specifically) to make that build choice. Especially when so many of the most advanced weapons are both larger -and- restricted behind either story or looting, it is absurd that starting weapons have any significant competitive edge against them. That this -same change- will also make early farming and bootstrapping via looting more difficult is a very solid plus in my eyes. |
Seconding that this PR should also drop human weapon prices. Not as much as the lost DPS, but maybe something like 20-30%? |
As said I'm not sold on halfing the damage, just decreasing them enough that they aren't as effective. Currently there is almost no difference between tier 1 and 1.2 weapons, while a clear and visible difference between tier 1 and 1.2 ships.
Yeah, and I can see that being an issue for those making the coalition campaign, but it isn't much of a reason not to do this change since that campaign isn't even made yet. I was just pointing out the Coalition because decreasing the weapon damage isn't gonna hurt that campaigns balance much at all, and the two Korath cases, because increasing hp directly makes both of those enemies less powerful against humans, so while currently the balance between humans and the two Korath factions is fine, increasing human ship hp would directly make the Humans weak Korath strong balance go towards humans being decent at fighting the Korath, which would then make rebalancing the Korath around that something we might need to them do which opens a can of worms with many other factions. Plus as Ejo said, I feel like it would only be a bad thing to remove human weapons from late game use because we simply do not have a wide range of higher tier weapons to choose from, honestly I wish we had more Hai, Remnant and Wanderer weapon choices, each get I think 5 weapons only after their campaigns are done. |
I'd prefer to look at prices in a separate PR. |
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I think 50% is overkill and threatens game balance too much; if we have to bring it down by this much its notably because of human missiles being overbuffed in comparison to alien ones.
Now dont get me wrong, I agree that we should still bring all weapons down by a %, but no more than 20-30% or they become too bad. Then we can look at specific weapons that can cause issues (like the heavy missile or torpedoes and sidewinders that feel to me like they are too good rn)
I personally think its better to nerf it some amount even if we may have to do it some more later than nerf it into the ground.
Finally, I dont think we should be nerfing mining, especially now that we have a weapon dedicated to it. We could even make lasers do the same dmg as before to asteroids, but not nerfing the mining laser would prob be enough.
I'm mainly a code reviewer tho, so take this with a grain of salt
* Update weapons.txt * Update weapons.txt
Reducing toughness by the same % as hull keeps the effect of prospecting unchanged.
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Reduced the reduction to human weapon DPS, and adjusted asteroid HP in line with the new change to keep human mining unaffected. |
The Exiles' weapons are T1.5, except for the ones they've kept from the Automata (that being the grab-strike and banisher).
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I like this a lot more than before, buffing wand weapons might be benefitial for the uhai fights, tho idk about the wand-korath fights - it's prob fine, since they're broken already.
I love the idea of not touching the t1.5 stuff and changing things around it.
you forgot to nerf gegno stuff (half ironic, idk if we should, but if you're bringing the scope beyond human space idk why we'd leave them out of it)
This does make me wonder, however, didnt we like the speed at which T2 combat was happening? Should we change it all in the same PR? I understand that you did it to keep human dps relatively low in comparison, but isnt 20% enough? I dont have the answer to those questions tbh, just throwing them out there.
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Adding in my 2 cents: I agree with all the changes as they currently stand (especially not increasing human hp, and only nerfing human dps 20%), except for one thing: I wouldn’t increase Kor Mereti weapon dps 10%. Kor Sestor yes, Mereti no. The Shield Disruptor Turret combined with the Husk-Slice Turret is exceptionally dangerous. It’s arguably the best weapon combo for taking down T3 ships. I don’t think they need buffing, when a fleet of 10 automata loaded with those turrets makes short work of almost any ship. |
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In my opinion, increasing human HP would be a better change than reducing weapon DPS. While this doesn't fit the lore particularly well, I think the gameplay benefit outweighs the narrative complications. In general, good balance (as in, well-designed balance, not all things being perfectly equal) serves to make a game more interesting by making more options more viable for more players. At the moment, while most human weapons can be superceded by alien weapons of similar role (Plasma Cannon -> Fire Lance, Proton Gun -> Annihilator, Particle Cannon -> Mandible Cannon, et cetera), human weapons still have niches where they might be slightly better in, such as the Plasma Cannon having longer range than alien heat weapons or Proton Guns having a decent size, a turreted variant, and good balanced damage (whereas most alien weapons skew a fair bit to one way or the other; typically towards shields). Reducing damage wouldn't make the sandbox more interesting. Alien weapons are already (generally) better than human weapons (barring a few examples like the Jav Pod comparing well with Sunbeams and whatnot), so nerfing them just serves to further make the hole worse. While I understand the argument of progression, I feel like Regeneration and Energy outfits (and to a lesser extent, Engines) already give plenty of reason to seek out higher tiers, and weapons should be permitted to stay more even. Keeping the weapon sandbox in a state where (almost) everything is relevant all the time only expands the variety of builds that are usable, and encourages further experimentation by mixing weapons the player already has and new ones they've just found (for example, mixing Inhibitors and Particle Cannons for extremely strong ranged performance). Increasing HP by 20% at the human level wouldn't wreck balance relative to aliens, either. 20% for the biggest human ships is only about 6000 total HP or so if I recall correctly. An appreciable increase, but nothing that'd wreck balance, even relative to Hai-tier ships. |
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I don't think the issue of dying too fast in human space is addressed at all by nerfing human DPS. The issue isn't with weapons in general, it's with missile pods being inappropriately everywhere and with there being giant fleets that jump in right on top of the player (giving them no chance to escape) every 10 seconds. |
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yes Azure! as an old EV pro when i was a new ES player i was not able to do any fighting except sniping light warships close to the fence in a Bastion. if i came any closer to system center i would immediately get pig piled in my slow ship. 1v1 fights are not so much the problem its the spawn rate and how much skill it takes to carefully kite something away from the spawns so you can have a somewhat controlled fight with few adds! preventing prey ships from fleeing is a huge problem when a newer player or one who want to take challenging fights even now i tend to just grab an overkill fleet of ships if i want to acquire Inferno turrets or something. I am working on a personal mod so all non merchant ships follow the "scans planets" AI then reducing the spawn rate of all those ships by 4x to see what that does. feels internally constant that military and pirate ships would patrol for a bit before moving on, fights should still happen because ships stay in system longer but it should reduce the chaos pig pile of death things so often degenerate into. |
Balance
This PR implements a prototype for the change requested in issue #9802
Summary
Damage of all T1 weapons is reduced by 20%. This brings DPS:HP ratios a little closer to what they are at T2, making combat longer and giving more time to think, plan and implement tactical approaches. This also makes early-game one-shots much less common. For more information on the reasoning, see the discussion on #9802.
Also reduced the hull and toughness of all minables present in human space by 20%. Mining is a little underwhelming late-game; this makes mining more attractive in the post-human portion of the game, while keeping it unchanged in human space.
The weapons of the T1.2 Hai and the T1.5 Remnant and Korath Exiles are unchanged, as combat at those tiers is generally agreed to be fine as it is. In effect, those become the baseline about which everything else is tweaked.
Increases the damage of the weapons of the T2 Wanderers, Ka'het and Korath Automata by 10%. Combat at those tiers can be excessively slow (as mentioned here, and this reduces the extent to which that is the case.
Increases the damage of T2.5 Heliarch weapons by 20%. They need to fight the Quarg, and the Quarg are going to have a lot of HP, so to stop these battles turning into agonisingly slow slogs a buff is likely to be needed.
T3 weapons (that is, Skylances and Gridfires) are already stronger than they should be, and T3 balance in general is somewhat of a placeholder, so they are unchanged here.
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