New roof

[iteles]

We were told that it was highly likely that we would need to change the roof at home and following on from #20 (and the issues we have been having with increasing the energy provision for home), we have been seriously considering a Tesla Solar Roof.

https://www.tesla.com/pt_PT/energy

However, two things have happened since:

• Further investigation confirmed that the Solar Roof is still in its infancy and the timelines for this coming to Portugal are both unknown and 'not any time soon' https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/24/tesla-solar-roof-tiles-where-are-they.html
• We managed to get a very trust-worthy and more experienced roofer who has gone up to the roof and confirmed that with a little TLC, the roof tiles that are there will last "another 50 years" because they're great quality

Given that the most cost-efficient and environmentally-friendly option is to leave the existing tiles in place, this is what we will be going with. However, there will be a few tweaks to make sure we're looking after our story-filled shelter: insulating the roof for more energy efficiency (keeping the attic cooler in summer as well as the house warmer in winter) and protecting the roof tiles themselves.

Dependencies on the New Roof

• Placement of solar panels Solar Panels? #20
• Placement of climatisation machines
  • This can be done by removing a row of tiles from the existing roof but this may make the tiles below the structure more probe to falling off
• Finalising the pool
  • This is semi-dependent but ideally the roof would be completed because any falling roof tiles (according to the pool folks this is a very usual and probably occurrence) would damage the pool cover or lining
• Placement of attic windows
• Finalising the plastering and painting of the ceiling in the attic
• Finalising the flooring in the attic (a lot of rubble will come from opening the window holes so this would ideally not happen until the rood was completed

Tasks

• Confirm decision on moving ahead with work on the roof
• Organise timelines for roofing work
• Remove all roof tiles
• Lay down roof structure
• Lay down paineis sandwich
• Open holes for windows
• Install windows
• Finish off windows framing with peladur and insulation
• Build platform for external climatization machines
• Placement of solar panels
• Add guttering to roof Gutters  #67

[iteles]

Have spoken to the roofer multiple times since we first spoke of this issue. He was to confirm timelines yesterday but will now have to confirm tomorrow.

The crux of the issue is: he's trying to finish his current piece of work but is having trouble because of the rain and morning ice and is also trying to push his next piece of work (a 4 month job) for a week and half to come and work with us.

Current hoped-for timeline is a 30th January start.

[iteles]

Turns out that Wednesday 30th January to the end of the week it will be raining so work can't start then. Update to come mid-next week.

[iteles]

We seem to be stuck at step 2 here for an age, as with everything!

Spoke on Friday 2nd and with Northern Portugal on [red alert]((https://www.publico.pt/2019/02/01/sociedade/noticia/estradas-cortadas-voos-cancelados-arvores-caidas-portugal-enfrenta-tempestade-helena-1860334) due to Storm Helena, the roofers have been unable to finish their previous job.

The weather this week should at least allow them to finish their current job and then 🤞 move onto our roof next week weather permitting (11-Feb-2018).

[iteles]

Bad news today.
Our roofer (highly recommended by family who had them do their roof 25 years ago and never had an issue) was trying to fit us in between two 4 month jobs and with the delays in the one before us because of the weather means that it will now clash with the next job which has to be started on a certain date next week contractually.
However, once one month on that job is complete, he can divert some of his manpower to come and work with us.

I have given him until the beginning of this coming week to provide us with a guarantee that the work will start no later than the 1st week of March 2019 (3 weeks from now).

Impacts

• Attic windows - these cannot be put in until the roof has been completed
• Flooring: The attic flooring can only go in after the windows are complete, to avoid rubble being dragged over it and scratching it to pieces

[nelsonic]

@iteles this is super lame. 😞
Thanks for following up and updating the issue. 👍
Do we have a timeline for the remaining windows to be complete?

Did you make any progress with creating the Gantt Chart to visualise progress/dependencies?

[iteles]

Calls have been continuously ignored (4 per week for the last few weeks) or answered with 'I'm sorry, I don't have a date for you yet', so I have contacted another provider for a quote.

[iteles]

Meeting at site for quote from another provider on Friday (26-Apr-2019).

[iteles]

We've had another company come to visit the house for a quote but they can only start the work in September 😕 Finding more options today and tomorrow.

I've also added a list of dependent tasks to the top comment so we're aware of the limitations this is causing.

[nelsonic]

@iteles can we speak to Carlos about alternatives today?
Specifically can we speak to him about:

• carefully cutting open the holes for the Velux Windows
• saving any tiles that can be re-used in the "storage" area of the attic
• raising the tiles directly above and to the sides of the window and placing a _20_cm layer of roofmate
• Installing the Velux windows to the best of their abilities baring in mind that we will pay them to return to the site after the roof has been re-fitted to review (and if necessary, repair) the Velux installation.

The current roof is not leaking and our previous quote was to remove, clean and replace the same tiles.

I can do a detailed technical drawing to illustrate what I'm on about_ if you agree that it's worth pursuing. The Velux windows chap was against it, but it was a "Computer Says NO!" without taking the time to understand what I was proposing.

As we know from experience the "experts" aren't always right ...

And sometimes having an outsider who can think creatively about the problem can lead to a solution that entrenched people would never conceive of.

Each day that the project is not complete is costing us significantly in terms of both out-of-pocket mortgage payments and lost revenue ("opportunity cost") so it's worth our cash to pay for the Velux guys to re-do the windows entirely if it means we are open a month earlier.

[iteles]

@iteles can we speak to Carlos about alternatives today?

We can't today because it's a bank holiday and he won't pick up. But we can and should tomorrow, as was already the plan to speak to him in Braga for other things 👍

[nelsonic]

@iteles should I attempt to do a 3D Rendering of what I'm trying to get them to do?

[iteles]

@nelsonic That might be useful, but I think the staircase #30 may still be higher priority so we can get it ordered. We'll speak to Carlos tomorrow anyway and get him speaking to people.

[nelsonic]

@iteles did the alt supplier give you a quote or just tell you "maybe September" ...?

[iteles]

@nelsonic "Maybe September but I can't say for sure" and 'We'll have a quote to you in 2 weeks'.

[nelsonic]

Two weeks ... 😞
Surely, given the measurements of the building they have a form to calculate it in minutes... ⏳
Sometimes I'm tempted to stop writing code and become a construction worker. 👷
I'm sure I could get this work done in a couple of weeks from scratch using materials procured off OLX!

[iteles]

There's just a lot of demand right now so they're crazy busy.

[iteles]

After a number of budgets received, we have finally managed to find someone who can do the work in early June. I called immediately to schedule the windows installation and the earliest date for these in mid-July! All booked.

[iteles]

We have a date!

Work will start on the roof on 3rd June 2019

We had considered sourcing the roof tiles separately, however, the budget works out to being only €100 cheaper and I'd prefer to have everything taken care of by a single person who is then accountable for the work. So I made the executive decision to go for the slightly more expensive option and have the roofer take care of everything.

Budget to get the roof tiles removed, recycled, insulation added and new roof tiles laid is €6000.

[nelsonic]

222m x €17 = €3,774
€2900 for tiles + €500 roofmate = €3,400
@iteles Please ask Carlos if using Painel Sandwich will make the cost of installation slightly cheaper.

Note: "Painel Sandwich" = Structural Insulated Panels (SIPs) for anyone following along in English.

I've tried to read everything I can online about the pros/cons of telha tradicional vs. painéis sandwich ...

• https://www.guiacasaeficiente.com/Paredes/PaineisSandwich.html
• https://forumdacasa.com/discussion/44589/telhado-em-painel-sandwich-imitacao-de-telha-vantagens-e-desvantagens/
• https://www.bautexsystems.com/blog/problems-with-structural-insulated-panels the problems described relate mostly to the panels that use OSB (ori­ent­ed strand boards) as one of the components. None of the suppliers in PT use OSB.

The main advantages appear to be thermal insulation (saving on energy bills) and speed of installation.

The main advantage I was considering when I suggested the panels was the ease of installing the Solar Panels on top without breaking the tiles.
The structure for the Solar Panels needs to be fixed to the roof bricks and holes would need to be drilled through the tiles (or panels) in order to fix the Solar Panels in place.

This is why I wanted to go past the Solar Panel supplier and get clarity on the best roofing options.
It does not compute in my mind that clay tiles would be a good idea if we need to drill through them for the Solar Panels ... But this appears to be a reasonably "solved" problem considering the fact that most roofs with solar panels in PT/EU use clay tiles and it hasn't stopped the proliferation of solar.

There really is nothing conclusive on the durability of the SIPs vs. Clay tiles online. 🔍 😞

We had agreed with Victor of the Solar Panels that when we started installing the new roof, we would call out their engineers to coordinate with the roofers and get the solar panel fixings installed at the same time to reduce the installation time & complexity of the solar panels.

[iteles]

@nelsonic On your last point, Vítor from the Solar Panels place will be at the house on Tuesday (before they start fully installing a roofing solution) to discuss options with the roofers 👍 I agreed this with them the second we got confirmation of a start date for the roof.

On Costs

• Apparently the €2,900 included the roofmate so that's the final cost of tiles
• Onto the €3,774 of the painel sanduíche, we'd need to add the cost of the metal structure (which is an unknown at the moment but shouldn't be exorbitant)

The strangest thing for me at the moment is the idea that all 3 of the quotes we collected prior to trying to move ahead with clay tiles were upwards of €11,500.
€3,775 (for the SIP) + €3,000 for the labour (roughly) + €600 (for clearing away the old roof tiles) = €7,375

It would be unlikely the metal structure would be €4,000!

A conservative estimate would be that at most, there is about a €2000 difference in pure costs between SIPs and clay tiles.

On Labour Costs

The people we have working on the roof are pretty experienced with clay tiles and have estimated 1 week of labour for the tile roof.

Apparently, because of the metal structure, even though the roof itself will only take a day to lay, it will probably only be a day less of work and the labour costs will stay largely the same.

On Timelines

Given our window situation (installation booked for Friday 28-Jun or 2-Aug if we miss the June deadline), the timeline is the biggest blocker here.

We're working with Pedro to find out if it would be possible to get the panels to us in time.

[iteles]

I have looked up the two things that most concerned me:

• Acoustic insulation: I was wondering about rain hitting this material and it turns out that it's much of a muchness between SIPs and roof tiles
• Thermal insulation: Given that we're already insulating the inside of the roof with lã de rocha and the outside with roofmate, it seems we still get a small uptick in thermal insulation with SIPs but it's not significant at this stage

Aesthetics

I , by far prefer the one that imitates roof tiles and I'm starting to realise that our existing quotes were probably for this one, which is why they were more expensive.

You can definitely see it from ground level - the house across the road to ours has just been redone and you can clearly see a large portion of the roof tiles. Plus the side that is most visible won't have any solar panels to hide it.

We have gone to lengths to keep the story of the house and to keep some of the character of the fact that it's a renovated house. I feel like changing this to a no-tiled look would make a decent difference to the aesthetic of the house.

For solar panels

The solar panels guys confirmed it would be much easier for them to affix the solar panel structure on SIPs than on roof tiles (but our job isn't to make their jobs easier so I don't think this should be a consideration). There is of course a much lower risk of breaking any roof tiles in the process with SIPs which should be a consideration.

Suppliers

Ferpainel: http://www.ferpainel.pt/pt/contactos/

• Para a semana vão produzir imitação de telha 400mm mas não têm possibilidade de entrega. Poderíamos carregar o material nós 5a ou 6a feira.
• Budgets: €16.25 + IVA = €19.98m2 for the ones imitating roof tiles
  • €11.25 + IVA = €13.83m2 for the flat panels

http://www.ferpainel.pt/pt/produtos/paina-a9is/painel-sandwich-/fp-fertelha/

Using this pricing, the cost would come out at:

• 19.98 x 200 = €3,996 (for the SIPs)
• €3,000 for the labour (roughly)
• €600 (for clearing away the old roof tiles)
• Metal structure
• Acabamentos - culmios and such
• **Total: €7,600 + metal structure + finishings

Ondarev, can only install in September/October: http://www.ondarev.pt/pt/go/contactar-a-empresa

Não atenderam:

• http://www.ftb.pt/en/Contactos Closed but open Monday
• O Feliz https://ofelizpainel.com/contactos/
• Alaço (encerrados para férias) https://www.alaco.pt/contactos/
• http://www.irmalex.com/EN/index-4.html
• Lopez painel https://lopezpanel.com/pt-pt/painel-sanduiche-braga/
• Covema http://covema.pt/pt/contactos/
• Perfitec Eng. Renato 913408632

https://www.painel2000.com/contactos/
253322188 - eng Angela Costa

[nelsonic]

@iteles thanks for doing this research (making calls to suppliers) ✅

When the building is covered in plants, I don't think anyone will pay much attention to the roof ...

Should we investigate options for transporting the panels?

[iteles]

😕 I still think it will make an aesthetic difference.

I think the transport is the least of our worries. We can hire something if we need to. More of a question of making the decision to delay the windows and which roof type we prefer.

It'll be a €2,500 - €3,000 difference when all is said and done.

[iteles]

@nelsonic When do you want to go to the house this afternoon to take measurements?

I have also drafted the email and contacted the following folks from the list above for quotes and delivery timelines:

• Covema
• Alaço
• Irmalex

[nelsonic]

In measuring (deriving) the area of the roof, we took accurate (laser) measurements of the house,
but (I) did not walk on top of the roof to get tape-measure dimensions from the top.
Instead, I decided to use trigonometry to calculate the area.

I searched for "How to measure area of a roof" and found the following video:

https://youtu.be/0HZ1TYuRyPo

The first instruction is to measure the pitch: (obvs being an American tool it's in inches...)

Don't panic! Thankfully a few seconds later there's a conversion table:

A quick search for "roof angle multiplier formula" got: https://roofonline.com/roof-slope-multiplier

Roof Pitch	(In Degrees)	Roof Pitch Multiplier
1/12	4.76°	1.003
2/12	9.46°	1.014
3/12	14.04°	1.031
4/12	18.43°	1.054
5/12	22.62°	1.083
6/12	26.57°	1.118

Created a new Google Spreadsheet (other spreadsheets are available) with the tabular data.
Made a graph using the data: (the graph is useless because the Y-axis is too broad)

I signed up for a free trial of SketchAndCalc which gave me 60 minutes to try the product ...
Challenge accepted.

https://www.sketchandcalc.com/area-calculator

SketchAndCalc gave us the (flat) area of: 194.89 m²
We applied the multiplier of 1.068 to get: 194.89 x 1.068 = 208.14 m²

Panels

In order to work out how many panels of which lengths are required, we drew them on and took the measurements.

Panels required for longest sides:

Panels for the shorter sides:

Total metres of trim required: 38m

Now to work out how many of each panel we need!

[nelsonic]

Roof divided into 1m strips (the SIPs panels):

Panel cutting list:

Sent to suppliers. ✅

[iteles]

After a lot of back and forth yesterday with confirmations, re-checking the order and chasing, this has now been confirmed from Irmalex for delivery Monday, at €15.50 / m² + IVA for the panels and €13 + IVA for the cumeeira. ✅

[nelsonic]

@iteles thanks for confirming. 🎉
Can Irmalex supply the guttering #67 too? http://www.irmalex.com/PT/index-8.html

Or are you keen to have a separate company be responsible for installing it?

[iteles]

Irmalex could supply the guttering but then we'd have to have a different company (or Pedro's guys) install it.

I can ask for quotes.

[nelsonic]

@iteles if you already have a quote from a good supplier for the gutters #67,
let's just get them to install them immediately after the roof is ready. 👍

[nelsonic]

Roof Panels Arrived today: (thanks to @iteles tireless efforts to research, order and organise it!) 🎉

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6q5qetizFGMdgF277

📆 Installation tomorrow (ETA: done by the end of the week). 🤞

[iteles]

Yesterday all the tiles were cleared from the roof.

The plan for today is to get the roof cleaned up and build out the metal structure that will lay underneath the roof panels. The distance between the metal struts must be no wider than 1.5m.
I tried telling the roofers that and they told me I was wrong (this is not unusual as yesterday there were two separate instances where I suggested something and was told 'no' only for them to do it when a man told them that actually it was a good idea). So I spoke to someone else at the building site they trust and to their boss, who both assured me it would be done.

Tomorrow, the panels start to go on, so we should print multiple copies of the panel drawing we did together last week to take to them in the morning:

[iteles]

.. We are part of the way there, but why would this be problem-free? 😄
By this morning (9-Jul-2019), half of the roof was down, with one large and one small side to go.
The plan was to focus on the large side today so that the final two windows can get put in tomorrow as we only have the windows installation people today and tomorrow.

BUT the head roofer became ill and so they all left after lunch with the roof unfinished.

Cue a panicked and very grouchy phone call from the windows installation guys.

I'm waiting for confirmation from Pedro (the roofers' boss) that we will all meet up at the house tomorrow for a 07h30 start with extra men where we can help to get the panels up to the roof and cut them if needs be.

[iteles]

This is done:

We need a few finishing touches, such as the 'topos' but have moved these to: #91

[nelsonic]

@iteles FYI the roof is not "done". It might look done, but it's not finished.

[iteles]

@nelsonic Please add to the task list 👍

[nelsonic]

@iteles I think we should have a distinct issue "Roof Snagging List" that we cross-reference.
Essentially there are 3 major snags:

1. The roofers put screws in the "valleys" of the roof tiles instead of only on the peaks. That means that they will be exposed to more rain water and thus will oxidise and the panels will get damaged. (the Solar Panel installer alerted us to this ... 🙄) So we need to apply
   "Tela líquida" (AKA "Membrana líquida") to all the screws to ensure that no water can enter.
   This is the liquid rubber used by the Velux Windows installers to seal around the windows:
   

2. Almost all the Topos (ends) are rushed and thus poorly installed:
   
   
   This means that we need a competent person (who isn't going to rush the work and run)
   to carefully review each panel ending and where necessary remedy the join and paint with Membrana líquida to prevent water entering.
   https://www.leroymerlin.pt/Produtos/Construcao/Impermeabilizacao/Telhados-e-cobertura/WPR_REF_12281612
   

3. ANTS!! 🐜 (and other boring insects) will infest the ends of the Panels if not sealed properly.
   (we only learned about the pest problem after we had commissioned the roof in SIPs Panels ...)
   This is related to #2 above, but it is distinct in that the rain will not "climb" up from underneath.
   We need to apply an anti-bug treatment to the ends of all the panels. For this I propose we use a Borate-based solution which will protect against a wide variety of boring bugs.

Much more detail on borates: http://www.americanborate.com/all-about-borates/borate-applications/borate-wood-preservation/
Bora-Care: https://youtu.be/Rmr_aEodyhg + https://youtu.be/lD-f9a8-OLw

It may seem counter-intuitive to use a wood treatment for SIPs Panels (metal and foam)
but the foam in the SIPs panels is porous and will thus absorb the liquid so it's functionally similar.

Leroy has a product that will be appropriate: Tratamento universal AXTON incolor:
https://www.leroymerlin.pt/Produtos/Pintura-e-drogaria/Produtos-para-madeira-interior/Tratamento-contra-bichos-e-fungos/WPR_REF_16459800

I estimate that there is (at least) a week of work to be done on finishing the roof.
The person doing the work will need to be competent/reliable and follow clear instructions.
They will (obviously) need to be comfortable with heights (while wearing provided protection).
Joaquim...? 💭

[iteles]

👍 The things people leave when they don't know you have a drone to inspect their work with closely 🤦‍♂ Moved to #92

[nelsonic]

Indeed. When your "toys" and flying skills come in handy to inspect the work... 😉
Thanks for opening the new issue. ✅