Please allow Osara to interact with the master track #1

marioloreti · 2015-02-05T12:21:49Z

It will be cool if Osara could interact with the master track as Rea Access does. Specifically Rea Access allows to insert fx and it can provide access to the master track related parameters by pressing shift+tab.

jcsteh · 2015-02-05T12:44:07Z

Sadly, REAPER won't actually let you focus the master track in the normal way tracks get focus.

From what I recall, ReaAccess has a separate action for viewing fx parameters on the master track; i.e. it isn't the same command you use for fx parameters on normal tracks. Is that correct? I'll probably have to do the same in OSARA.

Regarding shift+tab, I assume that too is different to accessing parameters on normal tracks? Or is there some ReaAccess specific way of "focusing" the master track?

marioloreti · 2015-02-05T13:02:08Z

Hi,

with Rea Access I focus the master track with shift+tab and I am on the
volume parameter. with shift+tab again I can explore all the other
parameters.

About FX, yes, I can add these with a separated action, assigned to shift+f.
Il 05/02/2015 13:44, jcsteh ha scritto:

Sadly, REAPER won't actually let you focus the master track in the
normal way tracks get focus.

From what I recall, ReaAccess has a separate action for viewing fx
parameters on the master track; i.e. it isn't the same command you use
for fx parameters on normal tracks. Is that correct? I'll probably
have to do the same in OSARA.

Regarding shift+tab, I assume that too is different to accessing
parameters on normal tracks? Or is there some ReaAccess specific way
of "focusing" the master track?

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Mario Loreti

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marioloreti · 2015-02-05T17:04:04Z

Hi,
I wanted to let you know that it is already possible to add an fx to the
master track using the action called view fx chain for master track.
What rea-access did is the possibility to adjust the parameters for
those fx, the same way it can be done for the current track. The key
rea-access assigned to that action is CtrlShiftP and the action is
called "parameter plugin for master track". The tab thing that we have
on rea-access is a virtual mode that allows us to control volume, pan,
and it can be useful when checking where things are, for example, when
we normalize one item we can check at what volume it gets. In
rea-access, the tab key lets you control the current track whereas
shiftTab let you access the master track.
Il 05/02/2015 14:01, Mario Loreti ha scritto:

Hi,

with Rea Access I focus the master track with shift+tab and I am on
the volume parameter. with shift+tab again I can explore all the other
parameters.

About FX, yes, I can add these with a separated action, assigned to
shift+f.
Il 05/02/2015 13:44, jcsteh ha scritto:

Sadly, REAPER won't actually let you focus the master track in the
normal way tracks get focus.

From what I recall, ReaAccess has a separate action for viewing fx
parameters on the master track; i.e. it isn't the same command you
use for fx parameters on normal tracks. Is that correct? I'll
probably have to do the same in OSARA.

Regarding shift+tab, I assume that too is different to accessing
parameters on normal tracks? Or is there some ReaAccess specific way
of "focusing" the master track?

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#1 (comment).

Mario Loreti

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Mario Loreti

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Re #1.

jcsteh · 2015-02-09T19:35:20Z

I've just added the ability to view the I/O dialog for the master track. Does this solve this issue?

Virtual parameter navigation (i.e. tab/shift+tab in ReaAccess) is a request that should be addressed separately, but I think you should be able to do most of what you need with what is now implemented.

marioloreti · 2015-02-10T19:49:11Z

tried, it works!

Thanks.
Il 09/02/2015 20:35, jcsteh ha scritto:

I've just added the ability to view the I/O dialog for the master
track. Does this solve this issue?

Virtual parameter navigation (i.e. tab/shift+tab in ReaAccess) is a
request that should be addressed separately, but I think you should be
able to do most of what you need with what is now implemented.

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jcsteh · 2015-04-06T23:14:47Z

I found a way to actually focus the master track for real. I'd like to get rid of OSARA's master track specific actions. Instead, the user would focus the master track and then use the same actions as for normal tracks.

The question is: what should the user experience for navigating to the master track be? We could either:

Have the user press up arrow from track 1 to get to it; or
Have a separate action to focus the master track.

With either approach, note that down arrow would always take you to track 1, since the master track is always before all other tracks. I can't really override this without major hackery. Personally, I think I'd prefer option 1.

Thoughts? cc @GianlucaApollaro @ScottChesworth @dgl1984 @cmdfv

dgl1984 · 2015-04-07T00:41:08Z

As things stand now, we can adjust hardware outputs, volume, pan, and
the width of the stereo image.
We would lose some of these abilities by limiting to volume and pan
adjustments by removing the focus.

On 4/6/2015 7:14 PM, jcsteh wrote:

I found a way to actually focus the master track for real. I'd like to
get rid of OSARA's master track specific actions. Instead, the user
would focus the master track and then use the same actions as for
normal tracks.

The question is: what should the user experience for navigating to the
master track be? We could either:

Have the user press up arrow from track 1 to get to it; or

Have a separate action to focus the master track.

With either approach, note that down arrow would always take you to
track 1, since the master track is always before all other tracks. I
can't really override this without major hackery. Personally, I think
I'd prefer option 1.

Thoughts? cc @GianlucaApollaro https://github.com/GianlucaApollaro
@ScottChesworth https://github.com/ScottChesworth @dgl1984
https://github.com/dgl1984 @cmdfv https://github.com/cmdfv

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dgl1984 · 2015-04-07T00:44:07Z

I also thought of another problem.
As it stands, one can look at levels on the currently touched track, and
the master at the same time. However, if ony 1 track can be
manipulated/focused etc. that wouldn't be possible.

On 4/6/2015 7:14 PM, jcsteh wrote:

I found a way to actually focus the master track for real. I'd like to
get rid of OSARA's master track specific actions. Instead, the user
would focus the master track and then use the same actions as for
normal tracks.

The question is: what should the user experience for navigating to the
master track be? We could either:

Have the user press up arrow from track 1 to get to it; or

Have a separate action to focus the master track.

With either approach, note that down arrow would always take you to
track 1, since the master track is always before all other tracks. I
can't really override this without major hackery. Personally, I think
I'd prefer option 1.

Thoughts? cc @GianlucaApollaro https://github.com/GianlucaApollaro
@ScottChesworth https://github.com/ScottChesworth @dgl1984
https://github.com/dgl1984 @cmdfv https://github.com/cmdfv

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jcsteh · 2015-04-07T01:37:31Z

I don't see how we lose anything. There'd need to be an action to open the I/O dialog for the current track, which would include the master. I guess we could keep the separate action to open the I/O dialog for the master. I'm also happy to keep feedback for any master specific actions. The advantage of this approach is that it makes things more consistent for the user and doesn't require heaps of duplicate actions. While I understand the desire to have immediate access to, say, volume and pan for the master, it seems redundant to have separate actions for the FX Parameters dialog, virtual navigation, etc. Those aren't simply quick checks.

ScottChesworth · 2015-04-07T05:24:36Z

I vote for option 1. Most consistent with a sighted users ux and good consistency across platforms. Would like to keep a specific separate action to examine meters on the master without touching that track though if possible.

marioloreti · 2015-04-07T05:51:45Z

Option 1 for me!

Inviato da iPhone

Il giorno 07/apr/2015, alle ore 07:24, ScottChesworth notifications@github.com ha scritto:

I vote for option 1. Most consistent with a sighted users ux and good consistency across platforms. Would like to keep a specific separate action to examine meters on the master without touching that track though if possible.

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GianlucaApollaro · 2015-04-07T08:58:30Z

Hi,
What would happen if the master track is not visible? My guess is we
can't focus it either. Then, another comment. If I have to lose the
ability to instantly get to the fx parameter for the master, I'd rather
go for option two
This is my opinion
Il 07/04/2015 07:51, marioloreti ha scritto:

Option 1 for me!

Inviato da iPhone

Il giorno 07/apr/2015, alle ore 07:24, ScottChesworth
notifications@github.com ha scritto:

I vote for option 1. Most consistent with a sighted users ux and
good consistency across platforms. Would like to keep a specific
separate action to examine meters on the master without touching that
track though if possible.

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jcsteh · 2015-04-07T09:26:46Z

You can't focus the master if it isn't visible, but I can easily make it visible before focusing. What makes FX parameters on the master more special than FX parameters on any other track? I understand why volume, pan and meters are special for the master, but can't think of a use case for FX parameters on the master. You obviously have one in mind; I'd just like to understand it.

dgl1984 · 2015-04-07T10:03:52Z

It is useful with effects though.

Some times, adding a master effect changes a mix to the point of then needing to change another effect.
Having a separate action for master effects can let me quickly go between the 2, quickly changing parameters until the interaction is to my liking.

----- Original Message -----
From: jcsteh
To: jcsteh/osara
Cc: Derek Lane
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: [osara] Please allow Osara to interact with the master track (#1)

I don't see how we lose anything. There'd need to be an action to open
the I/O dialog for the current track, which would include the master.

I guess we could keep the separate action to open the I/O dialog for the
master. I'm also happy to keep feedback for any master specific actions.

The advantage of this approach is that it makes things more consistent
for the user and doesn't require heaps of duplicate actions. While I
understand the desire to have immediate access to, say, volume and pan
for the master, it seems redundant to have separate actions for the FX
Parameters dialog, virtual navigation, etc. Those aren't simply quick
checks.

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GianlucaApollaro · 2015-04-07T10:06:28Z

Well, if you have a submix of things, and you're controlling how the EQ
you've applied on the master is affecting it. Or, sometines some master
effects make a reverb more obvious and I may want to turn it down, and
now it's easily done by going between track and master effects
Il 07/04/2015 11:26, jcsteh ha scritto:

You can't focus the master if it isn't visible, but I can easily make it
visible before focusing.

What makes FX parameters on the master more special than FX parameters
on any other track? I understand why volume, pan and meters are special
for the master, but can't think of a use case for FX parameters on the
master. You obviously have one in mind; I'd just like to understand it.

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jcsteh · 2015-04-07T10:16:09Z

Fair enough. I'll leave that action. I guess that defeats the point of making master focusable. This still leaves us with a steep learning curve, though, which kinda sucks.

dgl1984 · 2015-04-07T10:28:34Z

So would a keyboard training mode, but that has nothing to do with this issue.

----- Original Message -----
From: jcsteh
To: jcsteh/osara
Cc: Derek Lane
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [osara] Please allow Osara to interact with the master track (#1)

Fair enough. I'll leave that action. I guess that defeats the point of making master focusable. This still leaves us with a steep learning curve, though, which kinda sucks.

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jcsteh · 2015-04-07T12:00:42Z

As I've noted before, a keyboard training mode does not make an intuitive interface. It just gives users the ability to monkey push there way around until they happen to stumble on something useful, which, while admittedly helpful sometimes, is a very poor excuse for an intuitive UX. On further reflection, perhaps there's merit in having both focus and separate actions. That means there are multiple ways to do things, but it also allows users to graduate to more efficient actions as required. 5000 ways to do a single task does tend to be REAPER's philosophy, so who are we to buck the trend? :)

chrisbelle2015 · 2015-04-07T12:47:19Z

A keyboard training mode still allows one to quickly check if you are
using the right key combo for an action you don't do all the time.

Clunky or not, they are popular.

Put that request on the would like but not the most important thing,
actual functionallity is more important, but if a keyboard training mode
comes at some point, wouldn't hurt my feelings at all.

On 4/7/2015 5:28 AM, Derek Lane wrote:

So would a keyboard training mode, but that has nothing to do with
this issue.

----- Original Message -----
From: jcsteh
To: jcsteh/osara
Cc: Derek Lane
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [osara] Please allow Osara to interact with the master
track (#1)

Fair enough. I'll leave that action. I guess that defeats the point of
making master focusable. This still leaves us with a steep learning
curve, though, which kinda sucks.

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#1 (comment).

cmdfv · 2015-04-08T19:51:00Z

Think we all decided that while a keyboard help mode isn't sighted
congruent, I agree here with Chris. Having a mode to go into to double
check something I don't use all the time is a lot faster than opening
up the manual and hunting through it. I don't have to leave Reaper to
hit 1 key and then start jamming key commands, then toggle help mode
off again. We can argue until 2340 and this won't ever change.

I dig option one for the master track, but with master track actions.
Keeps things open to do things in whatever way the user wants. They
can always focus master by hitting upArrow to get there, and do track
actions if they so desire and feel that it's more appropriate. The
other guys can be on track 17 and hit ctrl+shift+P for master track
effects and be happy.

On 4/7/15, chrisbelle2015 notifications@github.com wrote:

A keyboard training mode still allows one to quickly check if you are
using the right key combo for an action you don't do all the time.

Clunky or not, they are popular.

Put that request on the would like but not the most important thing,
actual functionallity is more important, but if a keyboard training mode
comes at some point, wouldn't hurt my feelings at all.

On 4/7/2015 5:28 AM, Derek Lane wrote:

So would a keyboard training mode, but that has nothing to do with
this issue.

----- Original Message -----
From: jcsteh
To: jcsteh/osara
Cc: Derek Lane
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [osara] Please allow Osara to interact with the master
track (#1)

Fair enough. I'll leave that action. I guess that defeats the point of
making master focusable. This still leaves us with a steep learning
curve, though, which kinda sucks.

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

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#1 (comment).

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#1 (comment)

ScottChesworth · 2015-04-08T20:14:59Z

Chaps, this isn't the place to debate the keyboard training mode. Jamie has already agreed to implement the feature once the project is actually compensating for development time. A solid bid for funding has been placed, and the feature was on the roadmap that was submitted as part of that bid. Moreover, there's a separate GitHub issue for the feature, so if you have something to say (beyond wanting something that's already been agreed to), that'd be the place to talk about it. Cheers.

jcsteh · 2015-04-08T20:34:36Z

It's already been decided that there'll eventually be a training mode. That's covered in a separate issue. My only point in response to Derek is that having a training mode does not magically mean having thousands of actions suddenly becomes intuitive.

To allow for this and other stuff in future, OSARA now completely overrides REAPER's track movement commands. Re #1.

It is checked by default. When unchecked, unnamed parameters are excluded from the parameter list. Currently, this means parameters named with the empty string, the single character '-', a name like #1 or a name like P001. Fixes #887.

…#889, issue #887) When unchecked, unnamed parameters are excluded from the parameter list. Currently, this means parameters with completely empty names, the single character "-", a name like #1 or a name like P001.

jcsteh added a commit that referenced this issue Feb 6, 2015

Add OSARA: View FX parameters for master track action.

7699f3c

Re #1.

jcsteh self-assigned this Feb 6, 2015

jcsteh added a commit that referenced this issue Feb 9, 2015

Add OSARA: View I/O for master track action.

07904f8

Re #1.

jcsteh closed this as completed Feb 10, 2015

jcsteh added a commit that referenced this issue Nov 13, 2015

Make it possible to focus the master track by moving up from track 1.

60fa282

To allow for this and other stuff in future, OSARA now completely overrides REAPER's track movement commands. Re #1.

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Please allow Osara to interact with the master track #1

Please allow Osara to interact with the master track #1

marioloreti commented Feb 5, 2015

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Please allow Osara to interact with the master track #1

Please allow Osara to interact with the master track #1

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