Internet navigation

[nsousa2007]

On behalf of my students and also of some friends who cannot speak English, I would like to ask the main developers from NVDA to find a solution for improving the way NVDA announces HTML elements as soon as possible.
When you press h, for example, it means you wish to jump to the next heading. So NVDA should just read the next heading text and afterwards the element type. It shouldn't read all the elements you jumped, like: End of list, End of region, main region, table, etc.
It is really too much noise that annoys even advanced users, but it is rather much more confusing for beginners.
Okay. you will say "You can turn of the announcement of lists and so one", but it doesn't solve the problem because the user needs to have access to this information and needs to learn how to interact with it.
Some friends of mine, who are by the way advanced users, don’t use NVDA more often because of the way it reads in Internet.

Thanks,
NSousa

[josephsl]

Hello, I believe this was brought up before. @jcsteh, I remember you saying something about this a while ago. Thanks. From: nsousa2007 [mailto:notifications@github.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 8:57 AM To: nvaccess/nvda <nvda@noreply.github.com> Cc: Subscribed <subscribed@noreply.github.com> Subject: [nvaccess/nvda] Internet navigation (#7137) On behalf of my students and also of some friends who cannot speak English, I would like to ask the main developers from NVDA to find a solution for improving the way NVDA announces HTML elements as soon as possible. When you press h, for example, it means you wish to jump to the next heading. So NVDA should just read the next heading text and afterwards the element type. It shouldn't read all the elements you jumped, like: End of list, End of region, main region, table, etc. It is really too much noise that annoys even advanced users, but it is rather much more confusing for beginners. Okay. you will say "You can turn of the announcement of lists and so one", but it doesn't solve the problem because the user needs to have access to this information and needs to learn how to interact with it. Some friends of mine, who are by the way advanced users, don’t use NVDA more often because of the way it reads in Internet. Thanks, NSousa — You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#7137> , or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHgLkJ-7HMxt6xDUh2pzsht97KLDSw55ks5r2KPlgaJpZM4NPm2w> .

[derekriemer]

Hi: It only reads what is necessary. For example, if you jumped into a main landmark to the heading, it will say main landmark foo heading level 1. This is correct, and is done so that the user knows what changed.

…

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Joseph Lee ***@***.***> wrote: Hello, I believe this was brought up before. @jcsteh, I remember you saying something about this a while ago. Thanks. From: nsousa2007 ***@***.*** Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 8:57 AM To: nvaccess/nvda ***@***.***> Cc: Subscribed ***@***.***> Subject: [nvaccess/nvda] Internet navigation (#7137) On behalf of my students and also of some friends who cannot speak English, I would like to ask the main developers from NVDA to find a solution for improving the way NVDA announces HTML elements as soon as possible. When you press h, for example, it means you wish to jump to the next heading. So NVDA should just read the next heading text and afterwards the element type. It shouldn't read all the elements you jumped, like: End of list, End of region, main region, table, etc. It is really too much noise that annoys even advanced users, but it is rather much more confusing for beginners. Okay. you will say "You can turn of the announcement of lists and so one", but it doesn't solve the problem because the user needs to have access to this information and needs to learn how to interact with it. Some friends of mine, who are by the way advanced users, don’t use NVDA more often because of the way it reads in Internet. Thanks, NSousa — You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub < #7137> , or mute the thread < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHgLkJ- 7HMxt6xDUh2pzsht97KLDSw55ks5r2KPlgaJpZM4NPm2w> . — You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#7137 (comment)>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AFGivQfKNvzPKFG6Zi6siaVzKZphH9juks5r2KeDgaJpZM4NPm2w> .

-- Derek Riemer: Improving the world one byte at a time! - University of Colorado Boulder Department of computer science, 4th year undergraduate student. - Accessibility enthusiast. - Proud user of the NVDA screen reader. - Open source enthusiast. - Skier. Personal website <http://derekriemer.com>

[ruifontes]

Hello! Not correct. 1 - Go to www.amazon.com 2 - Press L to jump to the first list 3 - You will hear "List with 1 item, Prime Music" and is correct 4 - Press T to go to the next table 5 - You hear: "End of list, More on Amazon.com navigation mark, table with 9 lines and 13 columns, Amazon Drive\n, link" 6 - And the correct will be: "More on Amazon.com navigation mark, table with 9 lines and 13 columns, Amazon Drive\n, link" Rui

…

-----Mensagem Original----- De: Derek Riemer Data: 3 de maio de 2017 20:36 Para: nvaccess/nvda Cc: Subscribed Assunto: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Internet navigation (#7137) Hi: It only reads what is necessary. For example, if you jumped into a main landmark to the heading, it will say main landmark foo heading level 1. This is correct, and is done so that the user knows what changed.

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Joseph Lee ***@***.***> wrote: Hello, I believe this was brought up before. @jcsteh, I remember you saying something about this a while ago. Thanks. From: nsousa2007 ***@***.*** Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 8:57 AM To: nvaccess/nvda ***@***.***> Cc: Subscribed ***@***.***> Subject: [nvaccess/nvda] Internet navigation (#7137) On behalf of my students and also of some friends who cannot speak English, I would like to ask the main developers from NVDA to find a solution for improving the way NVDA announces HTML elements as soon as possible. When you press h, for example, it means you wish to jump to the next heading. So NVDA should just read the next heading text and afterwards the element type. It shouldn't read all the elements you jumped, like: End of list, End of region, main region, table, etc. It is really too much noise that annoys even advanced users, but it is rather much more confusing for beginners. Okay. you will say "You can turn of the announcement of lists and so one", but it doesn't solve the problem because the user needs to have access to this information and needs to learn how to interact with it. Some friends of mine, who are by the way advanced users, don’t use NVDA more often because of the way it reads in Internet. Thanks, NSousa — You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub < #7137> , or mute the thread < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHgLkJ- 7HMxt6xDUh2pzsht97KLDSw55ks5r2KPlgaJpZM4NPm2w> . — You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#7137 (comment)>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AFGivQfKNvzPKFG6Zi6siaVzKZphH9juks5r2KeDgaJpZM4NPm2w> .

-- Derek Riemer: Improving the world one byte at a time! - University of Colorado Boulder Department of computer science, 4th year undergraduate student. - Accessibility enthusiast. - Proud user of the NVDA screen reader. - Open source enthusiast. - Skier. Personal website <http://derekriemer.com> — You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.

[derekriemer]

I see what you mean. So you're saying we shouldn't announce when we leave some parts and enter the table for example?

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 16:40 ruifontes ***@***.***> wrote: Hello! Not correct. 1 - Go to www.amazon.com 2 - Press L to jump to the first list 3 - You will hear "List with 1 item, Prime Music" and is correct 4 - Press T to go to the next table 5 - You hear: "End of list, More on Amazon.com navigation mark, table with 9 lines and 13 columns, Amazon Drive\n, link" 6 - And the correct will be: "More on Amazon.com navigation mark, table with 9 lines and 13 columns, Amazon Drive\n, link" Rui -----Mensagem Original----- De: Derek Riemer Data: 3 de maio de 2017 20:36 Para: nvaccess/nvda Cc: Subscribed Assunto: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Internet navigation (#7137) Hi: It only reads what is necessary. For example, if you jumped into a main landmark to the heading, it will say main landmark foo heading level 1. This is correct, and is done so that the user knows what changed. On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Joseph Lee ***@***.***> wrote: > Hello, I believe this was brought up before. @jcsteh, I remember you > saying something about this a while ago. Thanks. > > > > From: nsousa2007 ***@***.*** > Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 8:57 AM > To: nvaccess/nvda ***@***.***> > Cc: Subscribed ***@***.***> > Subject: [nvaccess/nvda] Internet navigation (#7137) > > > > On behalf of my students and also of some friends who cannot speak > English, I would like to ask the main developers from NVDA to find a > solution for improving the way NVDA announces HTML elements as soon as > possible. > When you press h, for example, it means you wish to jump to the next > heading. So NVDA should just read the next heading text and afterwards the > element type. It shouldn't read all the elements you jumped, like: End of > list, End of region, main region, table, etc. > It is really too much noise that annoys even advanced users, but it is > rather much more confusing for beginners. > Okay. you will say "You can turn of the announcement of lists and so one", > but it doesn't solve the problem because the user needs to have access to > this information and needs to learn how to interact with it. > Some friends of mine, who are by the way advanced users, don’t use NVDA > more often because of the way it reads in Internet. > > Thanks, > NSousa > > — > You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub < > #7137> , or mute the thread < > https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHgLkJ- > 7HMxt6xDUh2pzsht97KLDSw55ks5r2KPlgaJpZM4NPm2w> . > > > — > You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > <#7137 (comment)>, or > mute > the thread > < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AFGivQfKNvzPKFG6Zi6siaVzKZphH9juks5r2KeDgaJpZM4NPm2w > > . > -- Derek Riemer: Improving the world one byte at a time! - University of Colorado Boulder Department of computer science, 4th year undergraduate student. - Accessibility enthusiast. - Proud user of the NVDA screen reader. - Open source enthusiast. - Skier. Personal website <http://derekriemer.com> — You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread. — You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#7137 (comment)>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AFGivcOni1LMc59WJxJBfH1e7dVBDnvxks5r2QJcgaJpZM4NPm2w> .

-- Derek Riemer: Improving the world one byte at a time! - University of Colorado Boulder Department of computer science, 4th year undergraduate student. - Accessibility enthusiast. - Proud user of the NVDA screen reader. - Open source enthusiast. - Skier. Personal website <http://derekriemer.com>

[PratikP1]

I think the point is that the announcements for closing elements should depend on whether or not a user has traversed through the element. Jumping to a particular element doesn’t require the announcement.

[derekriemer]

Yeah, this makes more sense for me now. Sorry, I tried to reply on my phone there, and it failed. I think this might be useful.

…

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:15 PM, PratikP1 ***@***.***> wrote: I think the point is that the announcements for closing elements should depend on whether or not a user has traversed through the element. Jumping to a particular element doesn’t require the announcement. — You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#7137 (comment)>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AFGivUHKTS_rgKx6ovZ5rumJlywe5I4Iks5r2ULdgaJpZM4NPm2w> .

-- Derek Riemer: Improving the world one byte at a time! - University of Colorado Boulder Department of computer science, 4th year undergraduate student. - Accessibility enthusiast. - Proud user of the NVDA screen reader. - Open source enthusiast. - Skier. Personal website <http://derekriemer.com>

[nsousa2007]

Hi, Thanks @rui and @PratikP1 for examples and better explanations! @derek look at the following examples at the same website: www.amazon.com 1. Press l twice and you get: end of list, list with 4 items, Careers In my opinion it should not announce end of list, and list of 4 items should be announced after the item name. At least the user could be able to choose this behavior. 2. If you press arrow up at this point you get: end of list, get to know us. You are getting out of the list, but you were at the beginning of the list. What about implement it similar to Jaws that reads beginning and end of elements at the line before or after the element when you navigating with arrows down/ up? By the way try to enhance the behavior of coma and shift coma to jump to end and beginning of lists and tables. If you press shift + coma, it jumps to the first item of the list or to the first cell of the table. So far so good. However, if you press coma, it jumps to the element next to the list or table. Thanks for your work. Regards, Nsousa

…

On 5/4/17, Derek Riemer ***@***.***> wrote: Yeah, this makes more sense for me now. Sorry, I tried to reply on my phone there, and it failed. I think this might be useful. On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:15 PM, PratikP1 ***@***.***> wrote: > I think the point is that the announcements for closing elements should > depend on whether or not a user has traversed through the element. > Jumping > to a particular element doesn’t require the announcement. > > — > You are receiving this because you commented. > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > <#7137 (comment)>, or > mute > the thread > <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AFGivUHKTS_rgKx6ovZ5rumJlywe5I4Iks5r2ULdgaJpZM4NPm2w> > . > -- Derek Riemer: Improving the world one byte at a time! - University of Colorado Boulder Department of computer science, 4th year undergraduate student. - Accessibility enthusiast. - Proud user of the NVDA screen reader. - Open source enthusiast. - Skier. Personal website <http://derekriemer.com> -- You are receiving this because you authored the thread. Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: #7137 (comment)

-- Norberto Inácio de Sousa Consultor de acessibilidade Web e digital; Formador de acessibilidade, informática e línguas; http://pt.linkedin.com/pub/norberto-sousa/4b/9ab/a12 Tlm. 962836137

[ruifontes]

Yes, if I am arrowing, I should hear "List with X items" and "End of list", to know where the list starts and ends... But, when I jump to an element, I should hear only the new element. Rui

…

-----Mensagem Original----- De: PratikP1 Data: 4 de maio de 2017 04:15 Para: nvaccess/nvda Cc: ruifontes ; Comment Assunto: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Internet navigation (#7137) I think the point is that the announcements for closing elements should depend on whether or not a user has traversed through the element. Jumping to a particular element doesn’t require the announcement. — You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.

[ruifontes]

Hello! As I said in other message, yes, when we are jumping to another element using the one letter navigation. Rui

-----Mensagem Original----- De: Derek Riemer Data: 4 de maio de 2017 03:34 Para: nvaccess/nvda Cc: ruifontes ; Comment Assunto: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Internet navigation (#7137) I see what you mean. So you're saying we shouldn't announce when we leave some parts and enter the table for example?

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 16:40 ruifontes ***@***.***> wrote: Hello! Not correct. 1 - Go to www.amazon.com 2 - Press L to jump to the first list 3 - You will hear "List with 1 item, Prime Music" and is correct 4 - Press T to go to the next table 5 - You hear: "End of list, More on Amazon.com navigation mark, table with 9 lines and 13 columns, Amazon Drive\n, link" 6 - And the correct will be: "More on Amazon.com navigation mark, table with 9 lines and 13 columns, Amazon Drive\n, link" Rui -----Mensagem Original----- De: Derek Riemer Data: 3 de maio de 2017 20:36 Para: nvaccess/nvda Cc: Subscribed Assunto: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Internet navigation (#7137) Hi: It only reads what is necessary. For example, if you jumped into a main landmark to the heading, it will say main landmark foo heading level 1. This is correct, and is done so that the user knows what changed. On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Joseph Lee ***@***.***> wrote: > Hello, I believe this was brought up before. @jcsteh, I remember you > saying something about this a while ago. Thanks. > > > > From: nsousa2007 ***@***.*** > Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 8:57 AM > To: nvaccess/nvda ***@***.***> > Cc: Subscribed ***@***.***> > Subject: [nvaccess/nvda] Internet navigation (#7137) > > > > On behalf of my students and also of some friends who cannot speak > English, I would like to ask the main developers from NVDA to find a > solution for improving the way NVDA announces HTML elements as soon as > possible. > When you press h, for example, it means you wish to jump to the next > heading. So NVDA should just read the next heading text and afterwards the > element type. It shouldn't read all the elements you jumped, like: End > of > list, End of region, main region, table, etc. > It is really too much noise that annoys even advanced users, but it is > rather much more confusing for beginners. > Okay. you will say "You can turn of the announcement of lists and so one", > but it doesn't solve the problem because the user needs to have access > to > this information and needs to learn how to interact with it. > Some friends of mine, who are by the way advanced users, don’t use NVDA > more often because of the way it reads in Internet. > > Thanks, > NSousa > > — > You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub < > #7137> , or mute the thread < > https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHgLkJ- > 7HMxt6xDUh2pzsht97KLDSw55ks5r2KPlgaJpZM4NPm2w> . > > > — > You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > <#7137 (comment)>, or > mute > the thread > < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AFGivQfKNvzPKFG6Zi6siaVzKZphH9juks5r2KeDgaJpZM4NPm2w > > . > -- Derek Riemer: Improving the world one byte at a time! - University of Colorado Boulder Department of computer science, 4th year undergraduate student. - Accessibility enthusiast. - Proud user of the NVDA screen reader. - Open source enthusiast. - Skier. Personal website <http://derekriemer.com> — You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread. — You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#7137 (comment)>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AFGivcOni1LMc59WJxJBfH1e7dVBDnvxks5r2QJcgaJpZM4NPm2w> .

-- Derek Riemer: Improving the world one byte at a time! - University of Colorado Boulder Department of computer science, 4th year undergraduate student. - Accessibility enthusiast. - Proud user of the NVDA screen reader. - Open source enthusiast. - Skier. Personal website <http://derekriemer.com> — You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.

[ehollig]

Duplicate of #2250