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@-mention when posting to Twitter #527

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singpolyma opened this Issue Oct 24, 2015 · 26 comments

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singpolyma commented Oct 24, 2015

Twitter interprets microsyntax whenever you post. There's no way around it. So if you have a post whose plain text says "Blah blah with @singpolyma" there is no way to tell twitter that "@singpolyma" is not the user named "singpolyma" and it will notify said user no matter what. In a silo this works, but when bridging to a federated environment it can cause issues (and especially annoyance of Twitter users).

One way to deal with this is to have my local implementation detect any such cases and not bridge them to Twitter, but this is not ideal. What should brid.gy do if it is asked to post something with the text @singpolyma in it? Here is my proposal:

  1. For the source HTML @singpolyma I would suggest changing it to "@ singpolyma", however I could see an argument to also leave it as-is, since some users might be writing plain-text microsyntax and expecting it is always going to Twitter? Hmm.
  2. For the source HTML @<a href="https://twitter.com/singpolyma">anything</a> put "@singpolyma" into the tweet.
  3. For the source HTML @<a href="https://singpolyma.net">anything</a> put "@ singpolyma.net" into the tweet.

Thoughts?

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kylewm Oct 24, 2015

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Semi-amusing anecdata from Tantek about this: http://indiewebcamp.com/StatusNet#Syndication

Syndicating Status.net to Twitter @-mentioned @tantekcom, a twitter account that previously didn't exist

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kylewm commented Oct 24, 2015

Semi-amusing anecdata from Tantek about this: http://indiewebcamp.com/StatusNet#Syndication

Syndicating Status.net to Twitter @-mentioned @tantekcom, a twitter account that previously didn't exist

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singpolyma Oct 24, 2015

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@kylewm Yes, this is exactly the sort of bug inspiring this post

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singpolyma commented Oct 24, 2015

@kylewm Yes, this is exactly the sort of bug inspiring this post

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kylewm Oct 24, 2015

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It's an interesting proposal; I'd say let's try a little harder to find the proper username when syndicating to twitter, and then use @ url as a pretty decent fallback.

For example, when I syndicated https://kylewm.com/2015/07/this-is-what-happens-when-you-give-me-the-keys-to my CMS saw @snarfed and knew to translate it to his Twitter username @schnarfed based on my contacts list sometimes called a "nicknames cache" in #indiewebcamp parlance.

Here's a sketch of an algorithm for how Bridgy could do this:

  1. Look for @-mentions formatted like @snarfed.org, @<a href="https://snarfed.org/">snarfed</a> or <a href="https://snarfed.org/">@snarfed</a>.
  2. If the extracted URL points to twitter.com, we're done.
  3. Else, fetch the extracted URL e.g. https://snarfed.org
  4. Look for a rel=me pointing to twitter.com
  5. Use the URL to determine twitter username (optionally caching this relationship), and generate @schnarfed.
  6. Else, use the literal string @ snarfed.org

This isn't an itch for me personally (I'm not using Bridgy Publish yet), but it would be a great starter project if you're interested in contributing!

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kylewm commented Oct 24, 2015

It's an interesting proposal; I'd say let's try a little harder to find the proper username when syndicating to twitter, and then use @ url as a pretty decent fallback.

For example, when I syndicated https://kylewm.com/2015/07/this-is-what-happens-when-you-give-me-the-keys-to my CMS saw @snarfed and knew to translate it to his Twitter username @schnarfed based on my contacts list sometimes called a "nicknames cache" in #indiewebcamp parlance.

Here's a sketch of an algorithm for how Bridgy could do this:

  1. Look for @-mentions formatted like @snarfed.org, @<a href="https://snarfed.org/">snarfed</a> or <a href="https://snarfed.org/">@snarfed</a>.
  2. If the extracted URL points to twitter.com, we're done.
  3. Else, fetch the extracted URL e.g. https://snarfed.org
  4. Look for a rel=me pointing to twitter.com
  5. Use the URL to determine twitter username (optionally caching this relationship), and generate @schnarfed.
  6. Else, use the literal string @ snarfed.org

This isn't an itch for me personally (I'm not using Bridgy Publish yet), but it would be a great starter project if you're interested in contributing!

@kylewm kylewm added the listen label Oct 25, 2015

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singpolyma Nov 20, 2015

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How do people feel about the case where the source content contains "@BLAH" and there is no link around for context? Assume they meant twitter, or (my preference) convert to "@ blah" ?

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singpolyma commented Nov 20, 2015

How do people feel about the case where the source content contains "@BLAH" and there is no link around for context? Assume they meant twitter, or (my preference) convert to "@ blah" ?

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singpolyma Nov 20, 2015

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This is complicated by the fact that by the time the content reaches granary all the HTML has been converted to text. So maybe we could do it in brigdy, but in the bridgy code there isn't a twitter-specific code path. Not sure what the right want to approach this is?

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singpolyma commented Nov 20, 2015

This is complicated by the fact that by the time the content reaches granary all the HTML has been converted to text. So maybe we could do it in brigdy, but in the bridgy code there isn't a twitter-specific code path. Not sure what the right want to approach this is?

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snarfed Nov 20, 2015

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good question!

at a higher level, i'm reluctant to add much (any) more sophistication or fine grained control to bridgy publish. i love that it saves you and other people from having to implement each of the silo APIs yourselves, and that you like it enough to ask for features like this! i'm not conviced it's the right place for them, though.

to do use cases like these well - choosing text to include, formatting, counting characters, interpreting (or not interpreting) mention markup - your CMS needs to integrate with them pretty tightly. you'll want to iterate on crafting tweet text, auto fill mentions, etc., which needs multiple round trips and nontrivial UI. the CMS is really the right place for all that. as a standalone service, bridgy isn't at all.

honestly, my strongest inclination at this point is to keep bridgy publish dumb, define precisely which text (etc) it takes from your post and publishes, and avoid additional functionality, since it's a losing game UX wise.

we could make bridgy publish plugins for the bigger CMSes (known, wordpress, etc), but i wouldn't personally work on those myself, and if they needed similar features from bridgy-the-service, i'd probably push back on those too.

(i'll eventually post this more visibly on my web site or somewhere, but i figured i'd start here.)

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snarfed commented Nov 20, 2015

good question!

at a higher level, i'm reluctant to add much (any) more sophistication or fine grained control to bridgy publish. i love that it saves you and other people from having to implement each of the silo APIs yourselves, and that you like it enough to ask for features like this! i'm not conviced it's the right place for them, though.

to do use cases like these well - choosing text to include, formatting, counting characters, interpreting (or not interpreting) mention markup - your CMS needs to integrate with them pretty tightly. you'll want to iterate on crafting tweet text, auto fill mentions, etc., which needs multiple round trips and nontrivial UI. the CMS is really the right place for all that. as a standalone service, bridgy isn't at all.

honestly, my strongest inclination at this point is to keep bridgy publish dumb, define precisely which text (etc) it takes from your post and publishes, and avoid additional functionality, since it's a losing game UX wise.

we could make bridgy publish plugins for the bigger CMSes (known, wordpress, etc), but i wouldn't personally work on those myself, and if they needed similar features from bridgy-the-service, i'd probably push back on those too.

(i'll eventually post this more visibly on my web site or somewhere, but i figured i'd start here.)

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singpolyma Nov 20, 2015

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my strongest inclination at this point is to ... define precisely which text (etc) it takes from your post and publishes

That's definitely my preference as well. Users should be able to expect that bridgy will always do a single (sane) transformation in any case and if they want something different they can build it themselves.

This ticket is just about improving the sanity of the "one thing" that bridgy publishes. I think @kylewm's proposed algorithm should be simple to implement and gets us there. The only technical issue I see at this point is deciding if it should happen in bridgy (where the HTML is but the twitter-specific code isn't) or in granary (where the twitter-specific code is, but the HTML isn't). I would lean towards the latter -- I really think the HTML should go through to granary anyway (since some silos might support different formatting options, etc, doing a single hammer-transform on the HTML independent of the silo seems aggressive).

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singpolyma commented Nov 20, 2015

my strongest inclination at this point is to ... define precisely which text (etc) it takes from your post and publishes

That's definitely my preference as well. Users should be able to expect that bridgy will always do a single (sane) transformation in any case and if they want something different they can build it themselves.

This ticket is just about improving the sanity of the "one thing" that bridgy publishes. I think @kylewm's proposed algorithm should be simple to implement and gets us there. The only technical issue I see at this point is deciding if it should happen in bridgy (where the HTML is but the twitter-specific code isn't) or in granary (where the twitter-specific code is, but the HTML isn't). I would lean towards the latter -- I really think the HTML should go through to granary anyway (since some silos might support different formatting options, etc, doing a single hammer-transform on the HTML independent of the silo seems aggressive).

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snarfed Nov 20, 2015

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i hate to say it, but i'm still reluctant. @kylewm's proposal would definitely work, but it's substantial new functionality, a new ad hoc microsyntax, and something where reasonable people could want different behavior. all of that still makes me feel like it belongs in a CMS more than in bridgy publish.

here's a straw man counterproposal: what if we support custom new webmention query params and/or mf2 classes that clients can use to give us the exact text they want to publish for a specific silo? that would relieve the pressure for complex transformations like this. sophisticated users/CMSes could use their own rich UI to craft this, then send it to us and we'd post it verbatim. unsophisticated users could keep using our existing translation. it would also let CMSes keep reusing our silo API implementations instead of doing it themselves, which i'm definitely for.

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snarfed commented Nov 20, 2015

i hate to say it, but i'm still reluctant. @kylewm's proposal would definitely work, but it's substantial new functionality, a new ad hoc microsyntax, and something where reasonable people could want different behavior. all of that still makes me feel like it belongs in a CMS more than in bridgy publish.

here's a straw man counterproposal: what if we support custom new webmention query params and/or mf2 classes that clients can use to give us the exact text they want to publish for a specific silo? that would relieve the pressure for complex transformations like this. sophisticated users/CMSes could use their own rich UI to craft this, then send it to us and we'd post it verbatim. unsophisticated users could keep using our existing translation. it would also let CMSes keep reusing our silo API implementations instead of doing it themselves, which i'm definitely for.

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snarfed Nov 20, 2015

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also @singpolyma you and tantek should talk! he's working on the exact same thing right now: http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag#Plain_text_authoring

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snarfed commented Nov 20, 2015

also @singpolyma you and tantek should talk! he's working on the exact same thing right now: http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag#Plain_text_authoring

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snarfed Nov 20, 2015

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@kylewm and i are currently concluding (in #bridgy) that https://silo.pub/ pretty much already does what i outlined above, just via micropub. funny.

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snarfed commented Nov 20, 2015

@kylewm and i are currently concluding (in #bridgy) that https://silo.pub/ pretty much already does what i outlined above, just via micropub. funny.

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tantek Nov 20, 2015

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Way too much overthinking of casual @-mentions in plaintext (without permalinks to real world examples to substantiate above requests / algorithms). The one example given @tantekcom was 1) total edgecase (not worth writing code for), and 2) obsolete since Statusnet and identica is basically gone. GNU Social is very different today, and pumpio has yet to reveal anything similar.

@snarfed's intuition is right:

  • "I'm reluctant to add much (any) more sophistication or fine grained control to bridgy publish"
  • "my strongest inclination at this point is to keep bridgy publish dumb"

Twitter has basically "won" use of @-names, thus if a user types it, or sees it on TV etc. by default it means Twitter. Evidence: https://indiewebcamp.com/silo-sponsorship#US_Democratic_Candidate_Debate_2015-11-14

I use @tantek/cassis (hey how come that doesn't auto link to my repo github?) to auto_link my @-references to Twitter.

The only awkward behavior I see currently is when my posts are POSSEd to Facebook, and have plaintext (unlinked) @-mentions in them which are unclickable.

Not a big deal - never had anyone complain(*) - and because of the above (people know Twitter owns @-names) and people can copy/paste them into Twitter.com if they want.

(*)There's a comic with an oblique reference to this: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2906
“Here's a friend crossposting from Twitter, so all these @ tags don't work.”
but that's about it.

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tantek commented Nov 20, 2015

Way too much overthinking of casual @-mentions in plaintext (without permalinks to real world examples to substantiate above requests / algorithms). The one example given @tantekcom was 1) total edgecase (not worth writing code for), and 2) obsolete since Statusnet and identica is basically gone. GNU Social is very different today, and pumpio has yet to reveal anything similar.

@snarfed's intuition is right:

  • "I'm reluctant to add much (any) more sophistication or fine grained control to bridgy publish"
  • "my strongest inclination at this point is to keep bridgy publish dumb"

Twitter has basically "won" use of @-names, thus if a user types it, or sees it on TV etc. by default it means Twitter. Evidence: https://indiewebcamp.com/silo-sponsorship#US_Democratic_Candidate_Debate_2015-11-14

I use @tantek/cassis (hey how come that doesn't auto link to my repo github?) to auto_link my @-references to Twitter.

The only awkward behavior I see currently is when my posts are POSSEd to Facebook, and have plaintext (unlinked) @-mentions in them which are unclickable.

Not a big deal - never had anyone complain(*) - and because of the above (people know Twitter owns @-names) and people can copy/paste them into Twitter.com if they want.

(*)There's a comic with an oblique reference to this: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2906
“Here's a friend crossposting from Twitter, so all these @ tags don't work.”
but that's about it.

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Also re: person-tag - that's beyond "casual @-mentions in plaintext", where Bridgy is reading from the semantic markup of the original post "u-category h-card" etc. and then taking action. AFAIK person-tags are orthogonal to this issue.

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tantek commented Nov 20, 2015

Also re: person-tag - that's beyond "casual @-mentions in plaintext", where Bridgy is reading from the semantic markup of the original post "u-category h-card" etc. and then taking action. AFAIK person-tags are orthogonal to this issue.

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singpolyma Nov 21, 2015

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No interested in inventing new microsyntax certainly. The whole idea here is to fix an issue with accidentally misposting of existing syntax. When a post has a specific permalink in it to specify the person being mentioned is not on Twitter, the twitter user of same name should not be notified.

Non-twitter @-names are common (including here on github and on the large and growing GNU Social networks, just to name a couple). Real-world experience with accidental mentions to Twitter among GNU social users has caused that community to disable posting to Twitter for most posts containing @-mentions.

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singpolyma commented Nov 21, 2015

No interested in inventing new microsyntax certainly. The whole idea here is to fix an issue with accidentally misposting of existing syntax. When a post has a specific permalink in it to specify the person being mentioned is not on Twitter, the twitter user of same name should not be notified.

Non-twitter @-names are common (including here on github and on the large and growing GNU Social networks, just to name a couple). Real-world experience with accidental mentions to Twitter among GNU social users has caused that community to disable posting to Twitter for most posts containing @-mentions.

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singpolyma Nov 21, 2015

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Anyway, I'll have to build something like this for my site either way. So I'll implement against granary and then we can discuss an actual code proposal instead of this discussion that has somehow become far too abstract for me :)

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singpolyma commented Nov 21, 2015

Anyway, I'll have to build something like this for my site either way. So I'll implement against granary and then we can discuss an actual code proposal instead of this discussion that has somehow become far too abstract for me :)

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snarfed Nov 21, 2015

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please do! and glad to hear you're planning to use granary. looking forward to seeing what you end up with!

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snarfed commented Nov 21, 2015

please do! and glad to hear you're planning to use granary. looking forward to seeing what you end up with!

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snarfed Jul 24, 2017

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should have added this link here a while ago: https://snarfed.org/2015-11-29_keep-bridgy-publish-dumb

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snarfed commented Jul 24, 2017

should have added this link here a while ago: https://snarfed.org/2015-11-29_keep-bridgy-publish-dumb

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jackysee Nov 22, 2017

I voted for an option to post plain text.
A case is that there is a medium link in the text and brid.gy seems can't handle it properly.
It's probably a result of chinese character url slug + auto @user linking.

The original text:

時空黑洞都出現了,非常歡樂!LOL https://medium.com/@p5d12000/%E5%A6%82%E4%BD%95%E5%AF%A6%E7%8F%BE%E5%AE%8C%E5%85%A8%E9%9B%B6%E5%BB%B6%E9%81%B2%E7%9A%84%E7%B6%B2%E8%B7%AF%E7%9B%B4%E6%92%AD%E6%8A%80%E8%A1%93-b3c1c8a303eb

Here is the preview in bridgy.
image

jackysee commented Nov 22, 2017

I voted for an option to post plain text.
A case is that there is a medium link in the text and brid.gy seems can't handle it properly.
It's probably a result of chinese character url slug + auto @user linking.

The original text:

時空黑洞都出現了,非常歡樂!LOL https://medium.com/@p5d12000/%E5%A6%82%E4%BD%95%E5%AF%A6%E7%8F%BE%E5%AE%8C%E5%85%A8%E9%9B%B6%E5%BB%B6%E9%81%B2%E7%9A%84%E7%B6%B2%E8%B7%AF%E7%9B%B4%E6%92%AD%E6%8A%80%E8%A1%93-b3c1c8a303eb

Here is the preview in bridgy.
image

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snarfed Nov 22, 2017

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thanks for the bug report, @jackysee!

twitter only allows posting in plain text, not anything else. it handles links and @-mentions itself. it looks like the bug here is in bridgy's preview rendering. i'll look into that!

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snarfed commented Nov 22, 2017

thanks for the bug report, @jackysee!

twitter only allows posting in plain text, not anything else. it handles links and @-mentions itself. it looks like the bug here is in bridgy's preview rendering. i'll look into that!

snarfed added a commit to snarfed/granary that referenced this issue Nov 22, 2017

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snarfed Nov 22, 2017

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fixed!

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snarfed commented Nov 22, 2017

fixed!

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jackysee Nov 23, 2017

Thx for the quick fix!

However I still found my publish problematic, the p-bridgy-twitter-content is not captured when using wordpress bridgy publish. I guess it's the plugin problem.

jackysee commented Nov 23, 2017

Thx for the quick fix!

However I still found my publish problematic, the p-bridgy-twitter-content is not captured when using wordpress bridgy publish. I guess it's the plugin problem.

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snarfed Nov 23, 2017

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welcome! yeah that sounds like maybe dshanske/bridgy-publish#47. cc @dshanske.

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snarfed commented Nov 23, 2017

welcome! yeah that sounds like maybe dshanske/bridgy-publish#47. cc @dshanske.

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dshanske Nov 23, 2017

Did you update to the latest version?

dshanske commented Nov 23, 2017

Did you update to the latest version?

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jackysee Nov 23, 2017

(continue to follow here?)
It's version 1.3.3.

A sample:
Post: https://jacky.seezone.net/2017/11/23/9304/
Syndicated to tweet: https://twitter.com/jackysee/status/933571631431274497
bridgy log: https://brid.gy/log?start_time=1511415796&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyUQsSDVB1Ymxpc2hlZFBhZ2UiKmh0dHBzOi8vamFja3kuc2Vlem9uZS5uZXQvMjAxNy8xMS8yMy85MzA0LwwLEgdQdWJsaXNoGICAgICAgIAKDA

The plugin unticked 'Set twitter from post excerpt'
The theme would generate an html for brid.gy to consume:

    <div class="p-bridgy-twitter-content" style="display:none">//不幸看到100毛那個「從家用解釋不同主義」系列 https://medium.com/@_.__/%E6%9C%89%E6%99%82%E5%80%99%E5%AF%A7%E9%A1%98%E4%BD%A0%E7%9B%B4%E6%8E%A5%E6%8A%84-dcfa1ed8bbc</div>

If I preview the post in brid.gy, it can consume the p-bridgy-twitter-content. The corresponding log:
https://brid.gy/log?start_time=1511416239&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyUQsSDVB1Ymxpc2hlZFBhZ2UiKmh0dHBzOi8vamFja3kuc2Vlem9uZS5uZXQvMjAxNy8xMS8yMy85MzA0LwwLEgdQdWJsaXNoGICAgICAgIAKDA

jackysee commented Nov 23, 2017

(continue to follow here?)
It's version 1.3.3.

A sample:
Post: https://jacky.seezone.net/2017/11/23/9304/
Syndicated to tweet: https://twitter.com/jackysee/status/933571631431274497
bridgy log: https://brid.gy/log?start_time=1511415796&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyUQsSDVB1Ymxpc2hlZFBhZ2UiKmh0dHBzOi8vamFja3kuc2Vlem9uZS5uZXQvMjAxNy8xMS8yMy85MzA0LwwLEgdQdWJsaXNoGICAgICAgIAKDA

The plugin unticked 'Set twitter from post excerpt'
The theme would generate an html for brid.gy to consume:

    <div class="p-bridgy-twitter-content" style="display:none">//不幸看到100毛那個「從家用解釋不同主義」系列 https://medium.com/@_.__/%E6%9C%89%E6%99%82%E5%80%99%E5%AF%A7%E9%A1%98%E4%BD%A0%E7%9B%B4%E6%8E%A5%E6%8A%84-dcfa1ed8bbc</div>

If I preview the post in brid.gy, it can consume the p-bridgy-twitter-content. The corresponding log:
https://brid.gy/log?start_time=1511416239&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyUQsSDVB1Ymxpc2hlZFBhZ2UiKmh0dHBzOi8vamFja3kuc2Vlem9uZS5uZXQvMjAxNy8xMS8yMy85MzA0LwwLEgdQdWJsaXNoGICAgICAgIAKDA

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dshanske Nov 23, 2017

@snarfed According to the log, it is captured. Ideas?

dshanske commented Nov 23, 2017

@snarfed According to the log, it is captured. Ideas?

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dshanske Nov 23, 2017

@snarfed According to the log, it is captured. Ideas?

dshanske commented Nov 23, 2017

@snarfed According to the log, it is captured. Ideas?

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jackysee Nov 23, 2017

For the log generated by bridgy publish (i.e. this one), it does not capture the p-bridgy-twitter-content. (search for medium.com, does not appear anywhere)

jackysee commented Nov 23, 2017

For the log generated by bridgy publish (i.e. this one), it does not capture the p-bridgy-twitter-content. (search for medium.com, does not appear anywhere)

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