Starting with REM... Newb questions #514
Replies: 13 comments 113 replies
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Yes you can simply turn off the temperature feed from njsPC and turn one on from another sensor. Or you can simply put the sample in the same place as the standards for a bit or vice versa. However, it may not be a bad thing to allow you to turn off the feed from njsPC and enter a single value. While the temperature compensation is important, its range in compensation between 75 and 95 degrees is around .04pH. So if the water temperature is within 15 degrees of the standards temperature any variance will be negligible. If we we measuring pH on very high temperature standard solutions then we would need to rethink that. I am not a fan of the internal pull ups for inputs on the Raspberry pi unless you are very careful. First you must change the pin to input then the really only safe way is to enable the pullup in the boot.txt file. The internal pull up/down resistors on the BCM cannot be read back. You must know what state they are in for input on the pins. If you do not then you can destroy the pin when you short a digital input. My typical mode of operation is to solder a protection resistor on the 3v3 line and a pull down on the input line. This turns the 2 wire digital device into a 3 wire and I can't screw it up. If the pin gets inadvertently exported as an output then it just won't work. There is no danger of destroying the pin. Now after that explanation yes you can use the internal pull up/down resistors on the pi. For the pin simply enable the pull up/down resistors in the config.txt. This will ensure the pu/pd is set appropriately on boot. |
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I got my IPS flow cell today. I was dissapointed that for almost $200 it didn't come with and tubing or fittings for insertion. Owell. It looks like the flow cell is actually 2 separate parts adhered together. If it could be purchased non adhered, it would be pretty easy to put the lid in my laser engraver and cut the circles to 3/4" for industrial probes. Also got my intelliph tank. It did come with insertion fittings and tubing, but I feel like I'd rather tap into the side of a fitting then the middle of the pipe. How have you all tapped in for chemical insertion? |
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Have you had any problems with the ball valve inverted? |
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No issues with it at all. It operates on pressure differential that the peristaltic pump easily overcomes. I have a whole Mission Impossible laser dodging routine that I do when I need to work on the pad. I trip the lasers every time. I would have to keep at least 2 replacements in the stash if I didn't protect it somehow. |
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Many of those duck bill valves are good to 100psi without batting an eye. And like @rstrouse said the pumps easily overcome that. |
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Best I can tell the one provided with the Pentair setup is a Stenner BCV14TVH. I think it's an injection ball check valve not a duck bill. I could be wrong though. Inverted will make it so much less likely to break off. My practice attempts to tap the 1/4" hole weren't up to par so I'm 3D printing a jig to try on my test fitting. |
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It is a ball valve if it is the one supplied by Pentair. Tapping an NPT in pvc takes a little bit of practice but the key is to only run the tap in 3/4 turn and out a 1/2 turn once you get the tap started. If you have a small hammer you can start the tap with some gentle taps on the end to make sure that it is straight then carefully make your initial thread cuts with a full turn or two. Then start backing out a 1/2 turn and running it in 3/4 turn until you leave about 7 threads on the tap. Test the threads by running the check valve in with teflon tape. If you need wider threads then run the tap in 2 more threads and try again until you have the depth that you are looking for. |
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I designed a jig to make sure the hole is straight and practiced many times. Jig is here if anyone ever needs it. https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5436851 I feel I have it down. Time to tap the real deal tomorrow. |
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Don't you dare get me interested in 3d printing. Looks great! |
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Absolutely need a 3D printer! Even a cheap monoprice mini will be the best $200 you can spend. I really do try to keep my low voltage and high voltage out of the same space. My focus has been to keep everything internal to the EasyTouch controller. I doubt this is up to code and will get removed before I ever sell this house, but I designed a transition box from the meanwell power supplies to CVPC and tapped into the conduit that carries my solar sensor. PETG plastic and my cheapest 3D printer... (Please ignore the web of untidy wires!)
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You do realize that there is nothing in the NEC that prohibits transformers in a high voltage bay. If that were the case, most automation panels would be out of code. This includes every Pentair panel. You cannot however run wires of differing voltage rating inside a conduit or mix them at a junction. |
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In my box the relay wires are the only low voltage wires that enter the high voltage area. I just don't want some high voltage wire to come loose and fry my electronics. I'm pretty sure NEC allows all kinds of voltages in the same channel as long as all conductors have an insulation voltage rating high enough for the highest. And you still need a 3D printer! |
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What I need is a 4D printer so I can make me some time! |
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Any idea if the lab grade probes will fit in the probe holders that come with the IPS flow cell? Or should I order one from Atlas for 1/2"? |
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Yes they fit with the fittings supplied with the IPS flow cell. |
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I only want to control pH. I got the Atlas Isolated carrier board and EZO-PH with lab grade probe. I'm in I2C mode (blue light). I've connected VCC to 3.3V, Ground, Tx to SDA pin 27, Rx to SCL pin 28. I have RTFM but Atlas documentation really sucks. Default channel 99 I2cdetect -l returns nothing. I can't detect any I2C devices in REM. Do I need to install anything else? |
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Did you give it a name and click save? We are picking up the i2c device now so, yes, it should be showing these value. |
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Yes it read it as an unknown device on address 99 0x63. I selected it and chose EZO PH from the drop down. Gave it a name. Saved. Reset the device. Named it again. Saved. Rebooted the pi. No device info shows. |
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Can you set the logging level to |
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Thank you for your willingness to help. I turned off the Pi and went to church. Came home and kicked it back on, and everything is working!
It's showing a pH in the three range in the storage solution. Hopefully calibration will fix that. |
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That’s about right for storage solution. |
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I am finally up and running! Since I don't have the industrial probe, I did not have the temperature feed for calibration. I put my solutions in a bucket of pool water and had to go into the pool controller software and turn on ph control before it would feed the body temperature back in the calibration window. It would be great just to be able to put in a quick manual temperature for the calibration. How do I get the "corrosion may occur" warning to go away? Is it because I'm using 31 baume acid?
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Congratulations! Looks great! The way to get the corrosion may occur to go away is to click on REM Chem in the chemistry bubble.
I would also go back into the config and use Calcite Saturation Index instead of Langelier Saturation Index. You should have a CSI between .3 and -3. This keeps your plaster healthy. |
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This is truly amazing. Thanks for all of your hard work and support! |
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Keep us posted on how things are going. REM Chem was possibly the most important thing I have done for my pool. |
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This is why I can't have nice things. Because I break them... It was working swimmingly throughout the day, faithfully dispensing a hundred or so ml every 45 minutes. And then I changed it to every 60 minutes and it all went to the pot. Now the pH is reading high 6s (I know I'm at around 7.8). I have tried recalibrating 2-3 times. I made my own standard solution with a 7.2 pH (even though mine is new) and tried it again. It says my tap water is around 8 (which is about right) but when I put the probe back in the flow cell it's back to ~ 6.7. Also I can't get the temperature in REM to read anything but 25C. I have tried several "feeds" to try to get the body temp to feed to REM calibration screen. After dinner I'll pull the probe from the flow cell and put it in a cup of pool water but I don't think that will make a difference. Any ideas?
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Let's get your settings correct. First, since you are configured with a pH probe lets dose by volume not time. Set the max dose volume to 50mL and delete that feed for the temperature from REM. Then set the mixing time to 1 hour. Also make sure you have set up your body capacity in the Bodies configuration. Since you do not have a temperature probe in the flow cell simply click the Feed Body Temperature checkbox on the Hardware tab. |
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I did the magic dance. It's now reading 7.7 (which seems right). Thanks, that wasn't in the manual! |
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You two must have better moves than me. That never works for me. |
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You know I wonder if it just needed to flow for a while. The reason being is that if there were an air bubbles behind the probe glass then those bubbles might pull down onto the membrane glass . Once they finally get sucked out then perhaps it simply stabilized to the correct reading. |
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I was thinking the same. I did see lots of little bubbles on the tip of the probe, but really had no way to get rid of them. It has dosed 392 ml today (I diluted it to 15 baume, I just didn't feel right sending 30 baume acid through my salt cell) and I am at 7.65. I increased the max amount per dose to 100ml. Speaking of my salt cell, it is reading my salt about a thousand higher than it should be. I have noticed that when it is dispensing the acid, it turns off the salt cell (which is really cool). I think it usually only reads the salt level once a day, and somehow it got read as super high yesterday. I will give that a few days to fix itself, but it was an interesting observation. I told it to ignore the salt readings for now and keep making chlorine. Out of curiosity, I would like my pump to never run over 2500 rpm when my solar circuit is on. But the Easy touch software does not have the ability to set a maximum rpm for solar (it will let you set a minimum). Occasionally solar will be on, and one of my kids will turn on the high flow the hot tub which puts the pressure in my solar panels higher than I would like them to be. Is there any way that REM or pool controller could monitor that, and adjust down the RPM when solar is on? |
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Actually, you should turn off the Ignore Salt Readings. It isn't doing what you think. That setting is so you can install your own EC meter and get greater accuracy but it has no impact on the cell. Unfortunately, the cell will stop generating if the sensor goes out of range. Most often it jumps because scale has built up between the plates. This could be true if you suddenly started flushing some acid through it and something broke loose and it hasn't dissolved yet. When I first installed REM Chem I would occasionally get white calcium flakes out of the returns. This was buildup that was in the pipes and every time the pH was allowed to drift high it would precipitate calcium out of the water. When it became steady, it began flaking off from all the nooks and crannies in the plumbing. I read all the time how the only real test of salt levels is a specific Taylor test. Realistically, you simply need enough salt for the cell to generate chlorine and if the cell is happy I would leave it alone. I haven't torn apart a new cell but the old ones used an EC sensor that measures TDS. This gives a +-500ppm accuracy. Sadly, this measurement is the only one that counts. The accuracy for the drop test is not that much different because the sodium will titrate out differently depending on temperature and pH. So you can get quite a swing from the cell depending on what is pushing through it at startup and you can get different readings on the same sample depending on conditions. njsPC will not force a restart of the cell between doses so it will not force it to re-sense the salt level since it can take up to a minute to restart the cell. However, if you turn off the pool circuit which should cut power to the cell it will reset it when it reboots (if you are wired correctly). If EasyTouch was not in the picture then I would say yes you could set this up as a maximum with a rule processor. However, you are probably overthinking this. What kind of panels do you have? Are they Fafco, Solaron, or some other brand and how many do you have? On the 31.5% acid I typically buy the 14.5% and call it a day. In the beginning I went through a lot of acid but eventually I ended up pushing the TA down below 50 and the acid cycle is much less. I'll do about 400mL/day @14.5%. These days is amazing how care free the pool is and it is always perfect. Full strength muriatic acid it 34% and anything above that is hydrochloric. Most manufacturers (including Pentair) recommend a 1:1 dilution when muriatic acid is full strength. And if nobody has said it yet congratulations on your implementation. I went into this all side eyed but REM Chem is probably the most important feature of my pool. |
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As my actual roof space was mostly eaten up by photovoltaic, I DIYed 15 x 1foot Hot2Sun panels on a ballasted system on top of my insulated patio cover. The vacuum valve leaked at first but the replacement has been holding well. The manufacturer recommends no more than 7 PSI through the headers to keep the soft fin tubing young and vivacious for decades. From experimenting, that's about 2500RPM. I really am excited about getting my pH and TA under control. My scaling was so bad a few years ago, I had to drop the pH below 7 and scuba dive for a few hours with a putty knife to get it all off. My buddy was about to drop some money on a Pentair easy touch system, and I showed him about the Nixie controller. He started ordering stuff already. With all the markups in the world on cars, eggs, gas, etc the hardest one for me is paying $200 for a $35 Raspberry Pi! |
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A bit more info on my mysterious flow issue. I had installed my extension cable so that it was bolted onto a small hole I drilled through the bottom of my easy touch enclosure. By so doing, probe ground was now in continuity with regular ground. For whatever reason, this doesn't jive well. I can recreate the problem l by connecting the probe's SMA outer ring to a screw on the enclosure. How on Earth the actual flow of water affects any of this I just don't know as it seems to be independent of the flow switch being connected. I've now isolated the probe ground from the enclosure ground and the problem has disappeared. And I did the dance. |
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Not OP, but this made me 😬 I'm running the Atlas SMA extension cables but male/male socket connectors from Amazon. DIdn't even think of the rating so I went and checked the product listing and sure enough.... 50ohms - However, in my case, I'm not seeing any difference between my consumer probe pH reading and my Taylor Kit so I'm not sure if it makes a difference. |
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In this instance the primary difference is the construction of the connector. The ratings are often obtained by increasing the dielectric core distance for the center pin which unfortunately, can make a 50ohm and 75ohm connector not make good contact. For this application it is all about this contact and not necessarily about loss due to interference. As for the shield ground, as soon as you ground it to the panel the shield is no longer isolated. To add to the confusion, that water is bonded to the equipment ground which plays a role in the measurement. As soon as you opened the valve you now had continuity to the probe glass. Some times you just have to be isolated when you are doing the dance. At least that is what my wife says when I threaten to do the worm. |
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By George, I think you've got it! I figured out the probe grounding issue, that did not deduce the water grounding issue. This was Jordan's reply to my video: "Thanks for the video; it was well made. The equipment works so well, people think thinkthe readings are wrong. If he has seen 5 million people do the same thing I did, I am Reassure that I am not the only idiot in the world. I didn't even tell him that I'm not using a 75 ohm extender cable... |
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In some respects I think he may be thinking about stuff that can be explained. From the display below you can see the sensitivity. I took several months in the beginning to wrap my head around all of this and every sample from the port was 100% accurate. The probe is very sensitive and you will see things about your pool that you have never seen before.
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Without a doubt, in this case it was because of the loss of isolation of the probe. I'm sitting at a pretty 7.5 pH with an alkalinity of 97. 600ml of acid dispensed in the last 24 hours. So far so good. |
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I finally got around to cleaning out my salt cell today. Lots of scale that has broken loose and lots of debris. Squeaky clean now. I cycled the breaker. Salt is still registering 700 higher than it was a few weeks ago, and the cell is blinking at me. Its making chlorine, my levels are right about where they have always been. I'll give it another few days but any ideas how remedy it reading high? |
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The salt readings are only accurate to +-500 ppm. Temperature also affects the EC sensor a lot. |
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I started getting this error when I tried to add a schedule yesterday. I deleted the schedule from easy touch menu and the comm error resolved. Now it's back. |
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When you look at the rs485 tab in dashPanel is the primary comm port open? |
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It is now. I unplugged the USB adapter from the raspberry pi, and added a USB extension. Not sure how that fixed it, but it did. Now that I know about the RS485 tab, I'll keep an eye on it. Thanks |
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Yeah the RS485 tab is really a good tool. RS485 can be lossy and when it gets excessive you will see a failure rate that starts to grow. I typically see ~.2% failure rate on the inbound for my setup but it can be higher if there is a chatty device on the bus. We tried to give you information that is not available on the Pentair OCPs to help troubleshoot RS485 issues. |
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2 days ago my ph as reported in Dash Panel was 7.6 all day, and it kept dosing acid despite the pH dropping as reported in I2C panel of REM. I ended up at a pH of 7.3 (setpoint is 7.5). Just now dashpanel showed 7.4 but REM showed 7.58. When i go in and uncheck FLOW readings only in the chemistry tap it refreshed the pH to reflect what REM is showing. How often does pool controller/dash panel query the probe results from REM? Should i leave the flow reading only unchecked for more timely updates? |
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It is updating. But I have another issue. My pH has shot up since yesterday. I went out to the pool equipment and told it to manually dose acid and although dashpanel showed it dispensing the peristaltic pump wasn't powered. I am running the pump off relay 8 built into my easy touch 8, so that I can manually add acid right from the pool equipment ( set up with a 2 minute timer to make sure it can't be accidentally overdosed in high amounts). I have a pin in REM set to give its feed through to the pool controller as shown in this screen shot. Turning the pin state on and off didn't trigger the relay on ET8 as expected. I removed the feeds and input then again and reset the server. Now it's working. But I've had it do this one before. Is there a better way to setup these feeds? Or is the RS 485 protocol that feeds through to the easy touch too unreliable and should I directly connect it to a relay on the raspberry pi?
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Why are you doing this? Is this in lieu of a flow switch? |
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No. I have a flow switch. It's in lieu of a relay hat/board. I want REM to turn on circuit/relay 8 on the Easy Touch, since that is what runs my peristalsis pump. I just couldn't figure out a way to do it without connecting that relay to a pin on the Pi by means of a device feed. Unfortunately this method is unreliable or I have to set up wrong |
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A relay hat is cheap and much more reliable. There can be delays and EasyTouch can refuse the request. There are also latch functions that ensure a relay unlatches is there is dosing interruption. |
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Understood. I'm still trying to problem solve why it will work well for days and then stop reading the feeds from REM. Would you recommend checking the only when changed button on the screen I referenced above? |
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I finally installed in a orp probe. They were 20% off at Atlas scientific so I bit the bullet. Calibration was without an issue. From my googleing, standard orp should be 650 to 750. Njspc defaults to 450. Where do you gents keep your set? How often for the read interval? |
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Well... On a similar note... My IPS flow cell keeps getting crap in it which appears to make it through the filter. It ends up jamming the flow switch permanently closed. I've got some new quad de filters to put in place hoping maybe that will solve the problem but this sure gets annoying trying to clean the thing out with wire. |
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You can get a line filter for the IPS. I would suggest that if crap is getting past. There are a bunch of different manufacturers out there and many of them are cheaper that what PoolWeb has it listed as. |
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Great idea. Thanks. This looks to be an easy addition: |
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Let us know how it works. |
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So far so good. Easy addition.
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I used 4th of July sales from Poolsupplyunlimited to I order my flow cell and Pentair acid dispenser today. Unfortunately they don't carry them in stock for local pickup so I pretty much blew the savings in shipping.
I have REM up and running but no probes yet. I'm still trying to decide between lab vs industrial.
A few newb questions:
If I get the lab pH probes without temp, what do I do about the temperature for the calibration step? Can the temperature of those solutions be measured with an external thermometer and be manually input?
Can the GPIO pin used for the flow sensor be pulled down internally in the software instead of using a physical 10K resistor? I think it's a 50K ohm internal resistor. Perhaps it could be an option after choosing the GPIO input option?
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