Skip to content
New issue

Have a question about this project? Sign up for a free GitHub account to open an issue and contact its maintainers and the community.

By clicking “Sign up for GitHub”, you agree to our terms of service and privacy statement. We’ll occasionally send you account related emails.

Already on GitHub? Sign in to your account

[RFC 0134] Carve out a store-only Nix #134

Merged
merged 19 commits into from
Feb 20, 2023
Merged
Changes from 14 commits
Commits
File filter

Filter by extension

Filter by extension

Conversations
Failed to load comments.
Loading
Jump to
Jump to file
Failed to load files.
Loading
Diff view
Diff view
274 changes: 274 additions & 0 deletions rfcs/0134-nix-store-layer.md
Original file line number Diff line number Diff line change
@@ -0,0 +1,274 @@
---
feature: nix-store-layer
start-date: 2022-09-06
author: John Ericson
co-authors: (find a buddy later to help out with the RFC)
shepherd-team: (names, to be nominated and accepted by RFC steering committee)
shepherd-leader: (name to be appointed by RFC steering committee)
Ericson2314 marked this conversation as resolved.
Show resolved Hide resolved
related-issues: (will contain links to implementation PRs)
---

# Summary
[summary]: #summary

Allow building a Nix executable with just the store layer.
Do this to manage complexity, and promote a "Greater Nix" community.

# Motivation
[motivation]: #motivation

## Managing complexity

We have recently added a ton of functionality to Nix.
Most of this is in Flakes, which just has enormous surface area, but things like floating content-addressed derivations and other RFCs add complexity to the core store layer too.

If we view Nix as one monolithic whole, it will grow too complex and unwieldy, and we will be unable to manage it as the complexity bogs us down.
However, if we embrace layering we can "divide and conquer" the project, and manage that complexity.
Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

"layering" does not really capture what this is about.

Suggested change
However, if we embrace layering we can "divide and conquer" the project, and manage that complexity.
However, if we define Nix's internal architecture more clearly, we can "divide and conquer" the project, and manage that complexity.

This will ensure the continued sustainability of Nix.

We currently embrace layering somewhat as an implementation detail, but only as an implementation detail.
Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

The layered architecture of Nix is not very prominent.

Copy link
Member Author

@Ericson2314 Ericson2314 Sep 21, 2022

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Suggested change
We currently embrace layering somewhat as an implementation detail, but only as an implementation detail.
We currently care about layering enough to partition the implementation into separate `libnix*` libraries, but this is only an implementation detail.

how is this?

Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Yes. (Although I would prefer to phrase it as separation of concerns instead of layering, but that may be me having Heard- and read "layering" way too often.)

The division between `libnixstore`, `libfetchers`, `libexpr`, etc. is not yet exposed to users, or emphasized in documentation (though this is changing thanks to @fricklerhandwerk's efforts with new [architecture documentation](https://github.com/NixOS/nix/pull/7066)!).

We should instead fully embrace it:

- Expand documentation

- More advanced documentation can explain layering for those that want a deeper understanding of Nix.

- Even more basic documentation can still benefit from separate terminology before the layering is fully explained.
See https://www.haskellforall.com/2022/08/stop-calling-everything-nix.html for a phenomenal take-down of how calling everything "Nix" today confuses users and leaves them unable to articulate what parts of the ecosystem are frustrating.

- Introduce separate executables to ensure lower layers can be build in isolation, i.e., without requiring higher layers.

- Add integration tests for those executables that don't require the higher layers, either. This is to ensure the lower-layer executables work correctly in isolation.

### Starting with the store layer

Ultimately, we should take this approach to all the layers.
The constrained scope here is to keep this RFC actionable.

Layering between e.g. Flakes and the Nix Language doesn't yet exist in the implementation in the form of a library separation.
Separating Flakes into its own library would require major new development work, and I don't want to "block" exposing the layering for the first time to users on such work when there is an easier way to try this idea how.
Flakes also has more development going on due being unstable, so it is nice to not get in its way.

Conversely, the store layer is already quite well separated.
Its conceptual independence from Nix's other layers is "proven" in the wild by projects like Guix.
The gap is also widest in terms of the layer of abstraction between, on one hand, nascent "infrastructure projects" like

- content-addressed derivations
- Secrets in the store
- Trustless remote building
- Daemon and Hydra protocol rationalization
- Windows Support
- Computed derivations (which are built by the other derivations)
Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Is that a term? I think in the Bazel/Buck world they are called dynamic dependencies.

- IPFS store

and projects aiming at improving user experience, such as

- Flakes
- TOML Flakes
- Hard-wired module system

Focusing on the lowest layer first, we get the most "bang for buck" in terms of managing extremely different sorts of work separately.

## Marketplace of Ideas

As Nix grows more popularity, it will be inevitable that different groups want to explore in different directions.
This is the *pluralism* of a larger community, and we should embrace it as a strength.
We do that by fostering a *marketplace of ideas*.

There are many possible ways in which to declare packages: the Nix language and Nixpkgs idioms, and Guix, for example, are just two examples of what is possible in principle.
There are also many possible ways set up build farms.
Our current model of a central dispatcher, many remote-builder agents, and a client–server where only one side initiates, is also just one point in a much larger design space of possible solutions.

The "derivation language" and store *interface* however, seems to me at least to be a very natural design.
Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

By derivation language, you mean the ATerm-based language that drv files are written in?

Copy link
Member Author

@Ericson2314 Ericson2314 Sep 15, 2022

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

The abstract syntax of that. Basically "a derivation is an execve system call arguments (prog, args, env vars), input black box data, and input other drvs' outputs". I think that right there is a very natural design.

Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

That terms needs a more formal introduction at some point, I think. I wrote about it in this blog post, if you care about a more detailed explanation.

There are a few tweaks and generalizations we can make, but I struggle to envision what wildly different alternatives one might want instead.

A small, stable interface that allows for design exploration above and below it is known as a [narrow waist](https://www.oilshell.org/cross-ref.html?tag=narrow-waist#narrow-waist).
It's not every day that a project happens upon a great narrow waist design.
I believe we've discovered a very good one with Nix, and that should be seen as a *key asset*, even if it is not how we recruit "regular users".

By making a store-only Nix, we put more emphasis on this key interface.
All functionality the store-only Nix offers factors through this interface.
Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I don't know what to make of this sentence. Is this what you mean? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/factor_through

Maybe we can just remove it?

Suggested change
All functionality the store-only Nix offers factors through this interface.

The upper half of Nix likewise uses the lower half through this interface.
The daemon protocol represents this interface for IPC, and allows either half to be swapped for a different implementation.
Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

So will the daemon protocol need to be standardized as part of this work? it seems to me that it wouldn't make sense to have a defined external executable without a defined way to talk to it (in the long run). The answer could be to link against libnixstore and use that to communicate with the (same version of) the store daemon. Is that so?

Copy link
Member Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

@andir We do have a defined deamon protocol, in that you could implement it yourself instead of using libnixstore and it is versioned. Yes, it is a not nice, but I don't think improving the situation should be a blocker on this PR.

Rather, I think this PR will help make this sort of thing more noticeable, allowing us to build momentum / community interest about improving the daemon protocol. I think that's great!

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Yeah, I don't mean this PR should implement it. It is just that the protocol might currently be defined but not documented or carries any guarantees. It has been subtly broken several times and (as you know) it isn't currently being tested across a broad set of nix versions.

I already implemted it (several times in fact) but the protocol isn't fun to reverse engineer from the current code base. My big hope is that with this RFC passing we could move to another RFC that defines a (new) interface that doesn't just allow exchanging implementations but embraces it.

Copy link

@ghost ghost Jan 25, 2023

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I already implemted it (several times in fact) but the protocol isn't fun to reverse engineer

Might you be interested in documenting these fruits of your protocol-reverse-engineering labors?


To help explain the community-building benefits, it might help to go over some specific examples.

### Tvix and go-nix

[TVL announced](https://tvl.fyi/blog/rewriting-nix) that, frustrated in trying to refactor Nix into something more modular and flexible, they were aiming to make a new implementation from scratch.
More recently, [they lay out a basic approach](https://tvl.fyi/blog/tvix-status-september-22) of two projects:

- [Tvix](https://cs.tvl.fyi/depot/-/tree/tvix) is a new implementation of the Nix language evaluator,

- [go-nix](https://github.com/nix-community/go-nix) is a new implementation of the store layer.

First of all, the fact that they are planning on two completely separate implementation oriented around this same "narrow waist" is testament to the appeal of the design.

Second of all, note that they have separate, orthogonal experiments they wish to run on both sides of the store interface divide.
Above, they want to experiment with radically different evaluation strategies, especially to speed up Nixpkgs evaluation.
Below, they want to experiment with the standardized containerization technologies that already exist for new ways of sandboxing and distributing builds with less bespoke Nix-specific code.
They also want to apply the layering paradigm *within* go-nix, fostering even more modularity.
Comment on lines +111 to +112
Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Where do you get all of this info about go-nix (e.g. what they want to experiment with, and where)? I can't find it in the links you mention.

Copy link
Member Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Taking on https://matrix.to/#/!YUnRYAzgytLSZbBhbx:hackint.org more information should be published soon after which I'll update the RFC to link it.

Copy link
Member Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

https://code.tvl.fyi/about/tvix/docs/components.md I'll update this once I can get permalink.


I think these are great goals, and for the sake of the ecosystem as a whole, it should be as easy as possible to run such new experiments.
In particular, a novel evaluator should be usable with the standard C++ Nix store layer, and a novel store layer should be reusable with the standard C++ Nix evaluator.

Yes, strictly speaking, we only need a stable daemon protocol to accommodate that goal, which we have.
Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I don't think this is a given. I seem to recall @edolstra stating that he does not want to guarantee interoperability between Nix versions[citation needed]. I think people disagreed on this and I'm not sure if they changed his mind, but it would be good to have a clear statement on this -- perhaps we could make it true as part of the RFC?

Copy link
Member Author

@Ericson2314 Ericson2314 Nov 18, 2022

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Perhaps but I would also just cut ", which we have" here too.

My point here was just to acknowledge that merely having a protocol so someone could rewrite the client end is "good enough". My main point is just that I don't want the server end with C++ to have to be an overkill binary that is capable of doing both.

I just brought up stability to try to steelman the other side: a protocol stable enough that it was practical to write an non-official client.

But ensuring the C++ Nix components can be built separately for use in isolation further send the message that such experimentation is *good* and *welcomed*.
Messaging matters, and making our layered architecture "official" as this RFC proposes I think sends a better message.

### Guix

Guix is further removed from Nix than Tvix + go-nix, and thus hints more at the end breadth of the design space yet to be explored.

The store layer is the same, but the layers above, instead of being an alternative implementation of the Nix language, have a completely different design using Guile Scheme.
The choice of language is just the tip of the iceberg here.
More profoundly, they also have a more "library" than "interpreter" model where packages depend on Guix as a library, which talks to a small rump daemon.
Guile sits far lower in their stack than the Nix language interpreter does; it is as if we rewrote some of our C++ into Nix language code, and Nix language code could do enough side effects to make that possible.

The point of this discursion is to show that not only are radically different implementation of the same specification possible on either side of the store interface (what Tvix + go-nix aim for), but also radically different designs not at all trying to be compatible.

All that said, below the store layer there is no difference in vision.
Because our communities are so separate, it would be easy to come up with diverging versions of how derivations, store objects, etc. should work.
That we have not done so I think is testament to the broad applicability of the Nix store design to many diverse groups of people with diverse goals.

What I hope to do with Guix, then, is convene both projects to make their store store layers interoperate.
Ericson2314 marked this conversation as resolved.
Show resolved Hide resolved
Complementing the idea of a "marketplace of ideas" is when there is a certain design (like the Nix store layer), that is so broadly popular as to be a sort of "natural monopoly", that we should foster the most expansive and general idea of it as an exercise in coalition building and outreach.
Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I find this sentence hard to understand, I think it tries to make too many points at once.

Copy link
Member Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

How's this?

Suggested change
Complementing the idea of a "marketplace of ideas" is when there is a certain design (like the Nix store layer), that is so broadly popular as to be a sort of "natural monopoly", that we should foster the most expansive and general idea of it as an exercise in coalition building and outreach.
Complementing the idea of a "marketplace of ideas" is when there is a certain design (like the Nix store layer), that is so broadly popular as to be a sort of "natural monopoly".
Rather than keep that designed "bundled" with more opinionated ideas (like the rest of Nix), we should foster the most expansive and general idea of the broadly popular idea as an exercise in outreach to other communities and coalition building with them.


I do not expect Guix to be immediately sold on this plan, but as that larger project, I think it behooves us to take the first steps to build trust and coordination.
Making a stand-alone Nix store executable demonstrates we are serious about layering and serious about standardizing that layer, and not just trying to get Guix users to use Nix instead.
Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Suggested change
Making a stand-alone Nix store executable demonstrates we are serious about layering and serious about standardizing that layer, and not just trying to get Guix users to use Nix instead.
Making a stand-alone Nix store executable demonstrates we are serious about separation of concerns, and serious about standardizing the store layer, and not just trying to get Guix users to use Nix instead.


# Detailed design
[design]: #detailed-design

The goals motivated above a broken down into small steps that we can execute in isolation.
This keeps the cost of this work initially lower, and generally reduces risk.

## 1. The split itself

Allow building a store-only version of Nix.
This is a Nix executable that links `libstore` but not `libfetchers`, or `libexpr`.
Plenty of commands like `nix daemon`, `nix log`, and the `nix store` sub-commands don't care about evaluation, fetching, or Flakes at all.
[NixOS/nix#6182](https://github.com/NixOS/nix/issues/6182) implements this, splitting `libcmd` into two parts so the CLI code is reused.
We will finish it off with as many commands as are reasonable to include, and merge it.
Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Can we move the store-only parts of Nix into a separate drv output where non-dependency on the "full" output is enforced?

Copy link
Member Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Right now it would just be a separate derivation, but it would be nice to try to build both where possible.

Separate outputs might play funny with NixOS but I think we can. We can also just build libraries and exes in separate derivations.


Initially, we can test this store-only version of Nix with no changes to the test suite, by running full Nix with the store-only Nix's daemon.
Support for testing Nix against a separately-built daemon already exists and is in use today.

The store-only Nix and its tests should be built as part of CI, as "first class" as our existing CI jobs.
Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I see no reason to emphasize this.

Suggested change
The store-only Nix and its tests should be built as part of CI, as "first class" as our existing CI jobs.
The store-only Nix and its tests should be built as part of CI.

That means both in the channel-blocking Hydra evaluation, and for each pull request.
Copy link
Member

@lheckemann lheckemann Nov 18, 2022

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Can we use the store-only Nix as the for NixOS's Nix daemon, and run Nix's daemon tests against a store-only-built daemon? Once we have the layering, I see no reason not to use only the necessary parts wherever possible.

EDIT: the later part about tests addresses this I guess.

If we hit the limits of GitHub Actions in per-pull-request CI, we should consider using Hydra either instead or in addition to GitHub Actions, something that has already been discussed.

## 2. Manual

It should be possible to build a store-only manual without information on the other layers, too.
Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Suggested change
It should be possible to build a store-only manual without information on the other layers, too.
It should be possible to build a store-only manual without information on the other layers, too.

It should be possible, but not necessary for us to implement, build, host, etc.

This would be the manual that is distributed with the store-only Nix.
Of course, store-only and full Nix can share sections, so we aren't duplicating work.

## 3. Website

The full and store-only version of Nix should both be presented for download on the website.
Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

What exactly do you mean by presented? Provided as binaries or discussed/explained/promoted?

Copy link
Member Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Yeah, provided downloads and discuss/explain what they are, but not necessary promote.

I am not going as far as saying they should be given equal billing. It's OK if users just download the entire Nix and aren't forced to learn about the layering. We can revisit that later if this is a success :).

This should be just like how Plasma, Gnome, and headless installer images for NixOS are all offered.

## 4. Store-specific Tests

The current test suite uses Nix language for most tests of store-layer functionality.
We should write new tests that don't use the Nix language.
E.g. we might create a `read-derivation` complement of `show-derivation` that accepts a nicer JSON representation of a derivation as input.
This will allow the store-only Nix to be tested in isolation, but these tests can also be used with full Nix.

# Examples and Interactions
[examples-and-interactions]: #examples-and-interactions

## Maximal Nix unlike today

I cannot emphasize this enough, but the interface of maximal store+exprs+flakes Nix remains *exactly* like today.
Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Suggested change
I cannot emphasize this enough, but the interface of maximal store+exprs+flakes Nix remains *exactly* like today.
The interface of maximal Nix, including the store, the Nix language, and flakes, remains *exactly* like today.

In particular, lower level commands can be used with higher level "installables" (arguments), so e.g.
```
nix show-derivation flake#bar
```
will still work.
Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Should implementation of this be migrated to a model where no executable links libstore and libexpr at once, and the CLI executable invokes the store-only backend (possibly for multiple stores as in case of nix copy)?

Copy link
Member Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I think I lean against that, but regardless I would defer such questions until after this RFC and this first step. If we can be sure full Nix stays the same in the short run, that makes this a lot less risky — hardly any risk at all, I think.


## Good tasks anyways!

Lots of the plan above I think is good work we should be doing anyways, regardless of whether we expose a store-only Nix.
If you believe this, then the "cost" of this RFC is a lot less.
Comment on lines +176 to +180
Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I don't think that's relevant.

Suggested change
## Good tasks anyways!
Lots of the plan above I think is good work we should be doing anyways, regardless of whether we expose a store-only Nix.
If you believe this, then the "cost" of this RFC is a lot less.


### Tests

Splitting the test suite per natural layer of the implementation is good work because it combines the specificity of unit tests with the real-world-ness of integration tests.
"Entire kitchen sink" tests make it harder to narrow down root causes of failures.

### Manual

The documentation team is already working to clean up the manual, and this effort already involves emphasizing layering.
Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Suggested change
The documentation team is already working to clean up the manual, and this effort already involves emphasizing layering.
The documentation team is already working to clean up the manual, and this effort already involves emphasizing the architecture.

So whether we formally make a store-only Nix or not, I suspect the overhauled manual will natural have easy boundaries from which to "extract" the store-only manual.

## Security

The daemon is a privileged process.
Even if with upcoming changes it shouldn't need root, it does tasks like administrating OS sandboxes correctly which still are security-critical.
Having less code in the story-only Nix daemon, even if we think the removed code was "dead anyways" is always good.
Ericson2314 marked this conversation as resolved.
Show resolved Hide resolved

# Drawbacks
[drawbacks]: #drawbacks

Creating new teams, trying to build ties with other communities sounds scary.

# Alternatives
[alternatives]: #alternatives

Do programming parts without the documentation and website parts.
But that feels to me like turning an ongoing shift in focus to a one-off change that is likely to bit-rot.

# Unresolved questions
[unresolved]: #unresolved-questions

What should the store-only Nix be called?
Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

nix-store

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I don't think we need to decide on a new name. It could be just a build configuration of the already named components.
For an analogy, in Nixpkgs both docker and docker-client packages provide the docker command, both of which are produced by the same package function.

On the other hand, renaming would be a nice gesture, if we drop nix from the names: libstore, store add-file FILE, etc.

Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I've been liking:

  • store: only the store layer
  • nix: includes nix language
  • flake: include flakes concepts

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I agree with @roberth's idea of not needing a rename. For the purposes of somebody wanting to make sure they only depend on the store-only Nix, we can have nix --version indicate that it's a store-only Nix.

Copy link
Member Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Moved to future work in 3194ad4. If everyone is good with that we can mark this thread resolved.


# Future work
[future]: #future-work

## Nix Store Team

Now that we have this division in the implementation, we also have the opportunity to leverage it for governance purposes.
An official, NixOS-foundation-authorized team could be set up to manage store layer design decisions (below the threshold of needing an RFC) that don't affect that the rest of Nix.
\[Some sort of decision that affect all layers is out of scope, must be deliberated with stakeholders from other layers too, probably should be RFC due to such large scope.\]
Ericson2314 marked this conversation as resolved.
Show resolved Hide resolved

To be clear, this is *not* to say we should abandon the idea of Nix as a whole.
There can still be governance of Nix as a whole; this team, and similar hypothetical, say, Flakes, Nix language, or User Experience teams would ultimately need to report to.
The goal is not to overreact, but strike a balance between:
Copy link
Contributor

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Suggested change
The goal is not to overreact, but strike a balance between:
The goal is to strike a balance between:


1. Making sure Nix as a whole continues to make sense
2. Make sure layers make sense in isolation, and not just in the context of the way they are currently used.

## Standardization across projects
Copy link

@arcuru arcuru Sep 15, 2022

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Have you reached out to Guix yet? When do you think it would be valuable to get their input?

Copy link
Member Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I have! But I think for this RFC the ball is purely in our court. This RFC is not about making technical decisions that would impact Guix, but about ratifying the idea of a store layer that is usable in arbitrary ways including the Nix language and Scheme via Guix.

I'll continue talking to them, and I encourage anyone else that wants to reach and say hi too — let's build more bridges between our communities — but if we don't do something like this I don't see why they should take us very seriously about store layer interop.


If we establish informal interoperability across store-layer implementations with Guix, a next step would be establish some sort of living standard that both communities have equal say in.
(Of course, implementations are free to implement features in excess of what the standard requires!)

A new store team, per the above, could lead the process from our end, since the other parts of Nix are not shared with Guix and thus out of scope for this sort of cross-project standardization.

## Stabilization

There is a looming question on how to stabilize Nix's big backlog of unstable features (New CLI, Flakes).
There is a lot of bad-blood over Flakes, both the feature itself and the way it has been rolled out.
I think the stabilization process can be an opportunity to heal old wounds.

At a minimum, this can involve stabilizing the new CLI before Flakes.
But even that that is a lot of new feature surface area to review.
I think even better is stabilizing just the store-only new CLI first.

This is easily the least controversial part of our unstable feature backlog, and yet there is still plenty to discuss.
Questions like

- logging
- store paths on `stdout` at end of build?
- Should commands like `show-derivation` should use `--json` by default
- Flat vs hierarchical commands
- is `--derivation` a good flag? (I think not!)

are all in-scope.

Having a conversation just on this narrow first batch of stabilization both builds trust, and ensures these still-important issues they aren't lost in flame wars over more divisive topics.
Ericson2314 marked this conversation as resolved.
Show resolved Hide resolved