Roboto Thin: do we still need to set usWeightClass to 250?

[jungshik]

Roboto Thin has usWeightClass set to 250 because Windows GDI cannot handle weights less than a certain value.

However, other platforms do not have this issue. It's likely that Windows DW does not have this issue, either.

Actually, in Chrome on Linux and Chrome OS, having usWeightClass set to 250 is problematic. When Roboto is installed locally, Thin and Light cannot be distinguished.

See the first column in table 1 and compare it with the 2nd and 3rd columns at https://40693f90dd0c21a90ac245e232f09b56581db3cd-www.googledrive.com/host/0B153_ao11p4QOFpIRGExRUtkcGc/roboto_test.html

Note that in the 1st column (local font), 'Thin' (font-weight: 100) is actually rendered by 'Roboto-Light' while the 2nd and 3rd columns do not have that issue (2nd column uses web fonts and 3rd column use 'Roboto {Thin,Light}' etc as a family name. The 3rd column may not work if 'touch_up_for_web' is not applied ).

At least for Chrome OS, I'll make a pull request to change it back to 100.

/cc @behdad @jamesgk @roozbehp

[davelab6]

Actually, in Chrome on Linux and Chrome OS, having usWeightClass set to 250 is problematic. When Roboto is installed locally, Thin and Light cannot be distinguished.

I thought that has been fixed upstream already

[jungshik]

I thought that has been fixed upstream already

Upstream where? Skia? Blink? fontconfig? I vaguely remember that @behdad did something in fontconfig, but it's not in any of released versions (the latest is about 2 years ago and his change was landed about a year ago, IIRC).

Anyway, using 250 for Roboto Thin does not make much sense. Roboto Thin is really thin.

[davelab6]

Given the continued dominance of Windows desktops, I don't think its good for end users to have fonts with values under 250 anywhere except distribution channels focused on non-windows systems.

[jungshik]

Well, it's Windows GDI. DW is not likely to have that problem any more.

[davelab6]

http://typedrawers.com/discussion/comment/20149/#Comment_20149

[jungshik]

Well, usWeightClass=250 makes it impossible to use 'Roboto Thin' with Chrome OS or Linux Chrome because the released version of fontconfig returns the same fontweight for Roboto-Thin and Roboto-Light.

Try 'fc-query Roboto-Thin.ttf' and 'fc-query Roboto-Light.ttf'. @behdad changed fontconfig to return different fontweight values for those two, but it's not yet released.

Nonetheless, I really don't like to keep using 250 when 100 makes a much better sense to cope with what's supposed to be legacy (Windows GDI) .

Given the continued dominance of Windows desktops

Where in the world? 'dominance of Windows desktops'??

[davelab6]

Nonetheless, I really don't like to keep using 250 when 100 makes a much better sense to cope with what's supposed to be legacy (Windows GDI) .

Sadly our sense of "legacy" is not the lived experience of most people using desktop computers in the world.

Behdad's fontconfig fix is likely to get deployed much faster than replacements to Windows applications using GDI.

Where in the world? 'dominance of Windows desktops'??

ChromeOS has a long way to go ;) Windows is still around 85%, per https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

[jungshik]

Where in the world? 'dominance of Windows desktops'??
ChromeOS has a long way to go ;) Windows is still around 85%, per

I'm not comparing Windows against Chrome OS. I'm talking about Android, Mac, iOS, Chrome OS all combined + Windows applications (that have moved onto DirectWrite : Edge, Chrome, Firefox, IE 11) vs Windows applications still using GDI.

Anyway, for Windows, we can have a special version of Roboto-Thin for Windows applications that still use GDI.

For web fonts served by Google Fonts, none of this matters.

[davelab6]

On 31 May 2016 at 11:40, jungshik notifications@github.com wrote:

For web fonts served by Google Fonts, none of this matters.

I don't understand this; the fonts served by Google Fonts are massively
downloaded into Windows desktops and installed.

[jungshik]

For web fonts served by Google Fonts, none of this matters.
I don't understand this; the fonts served by Google Fonts are massively
downloaded into Windows desktops and installed.

What I meant is that as long as Roboto are served via GWF and used in web browsers, it does not matter.
For those who download fonts and use on Windows, we can have a special Windows build of Thin available.

See #51 (comment) where using 250 hurts Linux users.

[mikmikmik]

A Thin font which is weighted 100 should be 100. It is distributed for every USER, so it doesn't make sense to change the value from a DEVELOPER perspective. I'm not a windows developer but it seems the bold render issue is based on the CLEARTYPE_QUALITY setting, which is where the decision should be made as a developer or as a Windows user. Windows has always been the worse in font anti-aliasing, which probably made many typographers cry.

[davelab6]

On Mar 6, 2017 4:52 PM, "jungshik" <notifications@github.com> wrote: For web fonts served by Google Fonts, none of this matters. I don't understand this; the fonts served by Google Fonts are massively downloaded into Windows desktops and installed. What I meant is that as long as Roboto are served via GWF and used in web browsers, it does not matter. For those who download fonts and use on Windows, we can have a special Windows build of Thin available No, sadly we can't, because the file offered for download is the same file served to web browsers.