Consider renaming the project? #40
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@kenglishhi, the name is based on the association with the Jasmine library. The Jasmine flower is used to flavor some teas, so this seemed like an appropriate and sensible association to make. Also, Mocha could be considered a "tea" by some serious coffee drinkers. Some background -- I was going to use this image as the logo, and the photographer allowed me to do so, but it never quite fit into the designs. http://goo.gl/f6Kay As far as the urban dictionary definition goes, you may want to block urban dictionary or turn safe search on within google -- the only thing we can do to combat that issue would be to become a more popular definition, as a name change is not likely. |
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(giggle) Google has been a potent antidote to "young and innocent" for years now. Most browsers nowadays have a 'parental advisory' filter… …and I love the should-be-the-logo photo. |
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Maybe "tea-packet" would work as a compromise? |
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I got nothing against teabag. Although, our office did a have quite a laugh when I added this gem into our Gemfile. But while we're in the spirit of throwing out names...how about kettle? |
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I actually like the kettle suggestion (I generally like the word), but as I said, a name change isn't likely simply because the association is a non-issue from my perspective. Look, it's understood that Teabag is a euphemism, but it's just as telling that there's such a juvenile level of humor in our industry. I'm not trying to be harsh here, but it's a bit silly, right? Am I crazy? I left this issue open so people would see my explanation and the real association if they were in question. One can make literally anything into a euphemism, and that's not the intention with the name of the project. Sure, get a chuckle out of it, but we also have to respect that our industry has all genders, cultures, orientations and backgrounds. Teabag isn't making light of that because any inference is solely on the individual making it. |
Well put 👏 |
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Heh; didn't see there was already an issue related to this when I opened the other. I mentioned it because it really turned into a huge issue over on the Testacular (now Karma) project. Personally, I didn't pick up on the inference on that project until seeing it was an issue. Instead I just naturally thought Tests + Spectacular. Many people were very upset by the name however; several women developers found it offensive. Some people even went so far as to say they were not able to use the project due to the issue with the naming. The flip-side of that name connection; when I saw the name of this project I realized it was innocent, but I still couldn't help but chuckle a little because of the quite obvious slang usage of teabag within Americanized English. |
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I think the one that takes the cake for offensive names is Erector. If women in your company overhear you talking about that, you will definitely be in some trouble. However, Teabag is still a close second in my mind. |
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@monkseal aka @kenglishhi -- really, the word Erector[http://www.thefreedictionary.com/erector], a totally legitimate english word, and century old toy for children offends you? |
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I'm sorry you work with people who aren't sensitive and who can't behave like grown ups, and I'm sorry you don't feel like my several attempts at clarifying the issue are sufficient for you to not post childish comments. I've already clarified that I named the project after a bag of tea, not what you describe. One is a noun, and one is a verb. Now grow up -- I'm not down with you posting crap like this to (I can only assume) get your rocks off. |
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@bigtunacan I've also reported your comment with github as being abusive and inappropriate. |
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My last comment was quite harsh and lewd, but it was to make it quite explicit what people think when they see the name of this project. I went ahead and deleted the post, because the point was not to "get my rocks off" as you put it, but for you to really realize the offensive nature of the project name. Unfortunately, it does not matter what the intent of the name was; it is an offensive term. Like I said in my original post that was quite complimentary; this looks like a great project. I found this project while doing a comparison of available tools in this space for my workplace so I could make a recommendation as to what tool to use. In the list I will present of options, this project won't be included. The reason is not because the people I work with "can't behave like grown ups"; it is because we do not want to alienate women in the tech work force or offend them. I work in a very diverse workplace where we respect each other and we don't want to do things that could knowingly offend. |
Now, taking into account how insensitive and offensive the name you've chosen to code under is, that it doesn't matter what I say.. you'll continue to be juvenile and offensive. I'm done here. |
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The problem is that whether you intend to offend or alienate people, or your intentions are quite innocent, it will still happen. Again, in my very first post related to this issue I said that I personally did not believe you intended to offend. It is quite sad though that you instantly made the opposite and worst assumptions about me based on my post to you. My post was to make sure you actually knew what the term meant; as it was possible you were unaware. I have no idea of your nationality or awareness of certain American slang terminology. To give you a better idea though; maybe you should take the time to visit the link to the discussion that surrounded the original name of the Karma (formerly Testacular) project, as it does better justice and discussion for why you might consider a name change. |
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Oh, so you're suggesting I name it Testacular now that that name is available? Pfff. |
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Wow, this is just sad. I was suggesting you name it anything other than Teabag. Quite frankly I liked the former comment to possibly call it Kettle. Similar reference to Tea, with a tie back to Jasmine as you had originally intended. The link to the thread on Karma, was to show some very good arguments as relates to alienating women in tech culture, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Also, your post saying my username is offensive is quite the stretch. Your urban dictionary link to that shows 2 thumbs up from people agreeing with that definition. My username is actually a reference to the fact that I frequently eat large cans of Starkist tuna. Not only that; my username will not be used as a "project" within teams. If however anyone that I were to work with found it offensive I wouldn't hesitate to change it. This is unlike the almost 8000 up votes on urban dictionary for teabag found here http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=teabag. Further this term is also available on the much more authoritative Wikipedia as well. It makes it all the more disturbing and off putting that not only is teabag a highly offensive and suggestive term, but one that is often used to imply an act of non consent on an unconscious person, thus implying a form of rape. |
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I've discussed with coworkers and one suggestion was Steap -- does anyone here have issues with that? I'm not saying that there's a name change in order, I have to sleep on it and consider just how inappropriate the comments posted here tonight were. I'm disappointed in the community for not understanding, or caring enough, to see that it's not an inappropriate name. Literally, this makes me sick, and I think people like you @bigtunacan are the problem, not a useful and well written and thought out project. If I had a solution for fixing people like you man, I would employ it. I don't care what you say about your nick, I find it offensive, no matter what you say to "clarify" it. You're sad. |
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@bigtunacan Since you deleted your comment, I figured I'd provide the screen shot that I reported you for.. I stand behind what I say, and I don't delete my comments, and I think it's revealing of your character that you would delete it.
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In light of all the negativity this thread is generating...I just want to point out that this is an awesome open-sourced project. @jejacks0n et al, you guys should be proud of your work. Unfortunately, great publicity sometimes comes with some criticisms (constructive or not). I really hope you guys still feel that you're making in a huge difference in the lives of the people who use your software--that's how I feel. Thanks! |
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@ngan thank you, I appreciate your comments. =) |
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I agree it is revealing of my character; just not in the light you are trying to put it. As I said before; I wanted to make sure that you understood what the term means, but I didn't want to put it on display to offend everyone that comes along later. But by all means; show your upstanding character by adding it right back in for everyone to see. It doesn't surprise me that someone that thinks it is ok to name their project Teabag also thinks it is ok to just leave that posted on here as well :) Originally I made the assumption that you were somehow unaware of what teabag meant, now I would say you knew from the beginning and you really just don't care how many people it offends. So good luck with that. |
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@bigtunacan I don't understand why you try to clarify your stance when you don't show the respect to understand mine. shrug, I proposed a name change, but you failed to respond to that. You failed to read my thoughts and reasonable responses on the matter and bullied through an argument that's ridiculous, you failed to notice that I'm open to a name change -- even in light of your rudeness and inappropriateness, and you failed to contribute anything useful in general to the conversation. You failed. |
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@jejacks0n, reread my comments from earlier. I said in an earlier post that I liked the Kettle name that was suggested. I don't really care what you name the project overall. The name you suggested, Steap, that also is a great option. Both of those maintain an association to Jasmine by way of having a relation to preparing tea. And both are non-offensive. Either is an equally good option. |
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@bigtunacan thanks. |
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I feel dirty for commenting here because I don't really use this project nor have I contributed it. But since github has no 'follow issue' feature, this will have to do. @jejacks0n, if you give in and decide to rename this project, it would be great if you make a comment here about it, so I would know. This way, I can ensure that I start a project called 'teabag' and though I'm not as great as you guys are, I'm sure I can build something semi-useful for the name. I don't understand exactly when our industry has become a perpetual party for hypersensitive nincompoops. |
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I suggest 'JavaScript Test Runner, Enterprise Edition 3.0'. 3.0 is not the version number, just part of the name. Then we could have 'JavaScript Test Runner, Enterprise Edition 3.0 v0.1' That would be fun, and totally non-offensive to anyone. Also, there's no possibility that anyone will laugh when they see the name, nor remember it. Ok, enough with the sarcasm. I find it interesting that @bigtunacan seems concerned about gender equality in the profession, and yet there is also need to improve cultural, racial, and LGBT diversity as well. He probably realizes this but his cultural bias (and mine too because I am addressing him as a him) immediately makes it a gender issue for him. So I think its important to realize that just because one person sees something sexual in a name doesn't mean all do. I certainly can't speak for these communities but I think a potentially offensively named library, for a niche process where the only external presence is the name in a These are just my personal comments, but since the project is under the modeset organization, I also think it is relevant to point out that out of 4 interns we currently have working with us, 3 are women. We have a paid staff of 8 people, so yes, the internship to employee ratio is 2:1. We support and host, in our office, code camps specifically organized for women, by women. Two of the 7 developers in house routinely teach development at a local college. These internships and sponsorships are not cheap, but they are very, very important. To this degree, I think the organization's actions speak louder than words when it comes to being inclusive, respectful, and actively working towards a greater future for our community. |
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for what its worth I like the name. I think of JS as a cup of hot water, teabag (earl gray, english breakfast) makes that hot water much tastier.
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I agree that there improvements to be made in all areas of diversity. Also, just to be clear, I am not personally offended by the name of this project. I do however try to be aware of what may considered offensive to co-workers; regardless of the race, gender, sexual orientation, age, or any other differences that sets them apart. Due to that and things I have seen offend others, within the work place (some of which surprised me; others where it where I was not at all surprised they took offense), I try to be aware and sensitive to how my co-workers may take things. I was very complimentary of the project that you have here with my original post. I'm sure some hard work has gone into it; and it really does look like a great project. If I had come across the project and thought it was garbage that no one would want to use; I would have moved on and not posted anything. As I stated earlier, I have to take a pass on using this project personally within the workplace; and I will not be the only that ends up doing that. I personally just hate to see that decision being made for what is social/cultural reasons as opposed to what should be the real issue, technical reasons. My post earlier, which @jejacks0n took offense too, just stated what is one quite well known definition of the name of this project. A definition that is going to turn up in Google search certainly ahead of this project, as mentioned by the user that originally opened this thread. Yet when I posted the definition directly on the thread he took offense to the extent that he then reported my post to Github, and made erroneous claims to why I posted it. The point there was certainly to offend, but also to enlighten, albeit through shock value. To say, "Look here does this offend even you?" Which it certainly did offend him; and that is the very definition and act that some people are going to call to mind, regardless of gender, race, or sexual orientation. Some of those people will be offended, some will not. It is your project; do what you think is best. |
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@bigtunacan I'm hoping you can take care of trying to open up the namespace? If you can CC me on the conversation with the author that would be awesome. Thanks! |
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@jejacks0n Will do. |
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@jejacks0n I've opened a line of discussion with the author of the current teaspoon gem. I will follow up with him in a few days if there is no response. Thanks. |
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@jejacks0n The Teaspoon name is now available on RubyGems. |
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Awesome, thanks @bigtunacan. I'm ready over here, and the new repo redirect stuff that the github team added last week (https://github.com/blog/1508-repository-redirects-are-here) should make that easy. |
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@jejacks0n I'll leave it to you to register under the new gem name on RubyGems to make sure you maintain control over that. I can update the readme and source to reference the new name and issue a pull request for that if you want. |
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Of course, we'll take care of releasing and all aspects that entails. I would accept a pull request with the name change. Teaspoon (no camelcase for the namespace) / teaspoon (lowercase for cli/routes/etc). We'll also have to rename the guard-teabag project. |
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So glad this is happening. :) Make the library even better. |
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@jejacks0n @bigtunacan any idea when this is happening? It will be nice to talk about this gem without having the women in our office roll their eyes... |
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Just waiting for a pull request. I figured it was an opportunity. |
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@bigtunacan the women in @monkseal's office counting on you to make this project less offensive... FWIW, Teabag does work really. |
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Hey guys, just wanted to say that, I now understand what people meant when they talk about 'offensive' project names. I was really combative at the beginning of this thread (and in this one: karma-runner/karma#376), but I never had any experience working with a lot of women in person (being a loner freelancer). Last night I met a couple of ladies from Germany and while conversing about this pretentious book, the word "circlejerk" came automatically to my lips but I couldn't bring myself to utter it. A bunch of other really offensive reddit-origin words came too but the pressure on my lungs made it impossible to really say them. I now know what it must feel like to talk in front of women about projects like "teabag" or "testacular". I'd argue that one must have some knowledge of game culture to know what teabagging is, but hey we're working in software so that's almost a given. So, yeah. Sorry about what I said. |
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@adityamenon I don't think you have anything to apologize for -- I think what you contributed was actually quite eloquent in contrast. =) |
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@jejacks0n @monkseal sorry for the delay, I was out of town for a week at the O'Reilly Fluent Conference for a week, and then one of our top developers quit so things have been hectic the last couple of weeks. I stayed up tonight to get this updated and just finished issuing a pull request. I'll start looking at the guard-teabag project tomorrow night. |
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No worries, I appreciate the work, so thanks. I consider it in my court now, and the timing will probably have to be sometime over the weekend. I'll keep you posted. |
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One more: the github description still has "Teabag". Fantastic project -- thanks so much guys. |
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I updated the wiki and other things (screenshots etc.) It would be useful if some people go through the upgrade process -- first using Then changing your Gemfile as suggested, running Chances are you'll have to update your initializer first, but I did add some help for migrating the teabag_env.rb to teaspoon_env.rb. It's be interesting to know what you encounter, so we can potentially add that to the readme. I also wanted to clarify that I don't believe Teabag is an inappropriate name, and that it's more telling of the maturity level in our industry in general. I can say Teabag in front of anyone with a straight face, either as the name of a project, or when I'm steeping my tea, and have come to believe that it's a litmus test for an individuals personal maturity, but whatever, it is what it is. Perhaps the experience can shed some light on that and have us all move forward with a better knowledge and awareness of how we as individuals, and as a community address these things. |
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@jejacks0n 👍 to the old name being fine. For me it conjured an image of a bag of tea. It's unfortunate that Urban Dictionary has the top google result for the prior name. I am slightly irked to have to edit my project to accommodate the change, but I recognize that the new name will save some awkward moments for people who recommend the project to others. |
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Last night my teabag config broke during an upgrade - ninety minutes wasted. After some investigation I find that the root cause of the breakage is a shakedown by moralizers who can't control their own bevis-and-butthead mental imagery. So I guess the new norm is zero tolerance towards names with alternate connotations. In that spirit, I demand that the username @bigtunacan be changed. When I google the term, I get something awful and upsetting. Since its fair to demand that @jejacks0n change his project name, it is also fair to demand that @bigtunacan be excised, so that it can never upset anyone's sensibilities, especially females or youth. |
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@andyl It sucks that you lost time on your project due to something like this. I strongly suggested a name change, not "demanded", due to seeing a very similar problem come up on the Testacular (now Karma) project. A project that I personally use. As the project became more and more popular; the name became a larger and larger issue. I stayed out of the conversation on that project as I did not care; I felt it was a non-issue. The same as many people feel about this project as well. But eventually it was a big enough issue that it could no longer be ignored, especially considering how some people reflected on it so poorly. At that point, close to 2000 of us were impacted; I was one of them. Right now; this project has only a few hundred users; it is better now than later. I also love how your "When I google the term" link is instead a direct link to a not all that popular Urban Dictionary definition, that is actually a variation, rather than the same exact term. When in fact actually googling bigtunacan will just return results about me for at least the first 4 pages... or even googling big tuna can returns results related to actual cans of tuna, or results related to the size of the fish, etc... As I said previously I was not personally offended by the name of the project before; but the name, without a doubt has a connotation to it. In an industry where women often feel alienated; I would think we would want to help that out. As a father of 2 girls; one who already at only age 9 tells me "programming is for boys" and a person that just as a rule doesn't go around offending other people without cause I was honestly quite shocked by the sheer outrage and vitriol that so many doled out over me suggesting a name change for this. Next time I will just pass on by the project without saying anything; and everyone else can just happily enjoy their righteous indignation that anyone could ever be offended by anything they were ever to say. And I will tell my daughters, "You are right; you are bested served to find a career outside of programming. Somewhere you can be treated as an equal and with respect. Somewhere that 90 minutes of @andyl's time is not more important than not having to put up with sexual innuendo and intolerance in the work place." |
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OK. Now that everyone subscribed to this issue has seen both sides of the Sorry about your 90 minutes @andyl. On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 9:25 AM, bigtunacan notifications@github.comwrote:
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@bigtunacan Per your comment: "I was honestly quite shocked by the sheer outrage and vitriol that so many doled out over me suggesting a name change for this." I'd like to point out that it was actually @kenglishhi that first suggested the name change. And FWIW, we have been quite supportive of the suggestion of the name change... |
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I have an 8 year old step daughter (and 10 year old step son) -- neither believe that programming is at all related to gender. I've been teaching both of them how to program and at a more basic level, how to think through problems logically. Sorry to the people who are put out by the name change, and as @randallb suggests, this conversation should stop here. |
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I have a 10 year old niece and this weekend I asked her if she would like to do some Kids Ruby exercises with me. She said that was stupid and went back to playing "Just Dance 4" on the Wii. I should note that I think this problem is beyond the scope of the issue: "Consider renaming the project?" which has already been resolved. Perhaps we should open a separate issue somewhere else to deal with this.... |
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@monkseal I agree you have been supportive, and also that I wasn't even the one who opened this issue in the first place! Unfortunately though where there have been personal attacks on this issue; like with @andyl's post; they have all been directed at me. I also feel like by putting in the time to make the updates myself, rather than just complaining and then leaving; I put my "money where my mouth is" to show that if I believe something is good I'm willing to step up and make the change and not expect someone else to invest their time to make me happy when they may or may not agree with my perspective. |
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@bigtunacan, thanks for taking the time to do that -- and this is also the reason I think the conversation should end. You put the time in to fix the thing that you took issue with, so I consider it done and over with. My bad for letting it get a bit flame-ish in the first place, so you have my apologies. Now, it's been renamed, that's the reality.. let's all move on with contributing good things for the community -- this thread is now detracting from it. Thanks all, now go have some Tea! |
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Can we please reopen this issue? I'm proposing we change the name back to Teabag. |
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👍 would merge. |
Have you considered renaming the project? When my intern googled for this project he was lead to the urban dictionary definition. He's very young and innocent...
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