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Transphobic maintainer should be removed from project #941
67 participants
and others
If you want him removed, start working on Opal and contributing as much as him to everything he did for Opal so we have a replacement that's more in orientation with your morals and views.
Protip: you won't because you can't.
Also to elaborate more on that, Opal is a technology, technology is moral-less, if a transgender contributor appeared @elia's views wouldn't even appear in here, because why would anyone care, bring contributions, they will be accepted with open arms, bring morals and politics in here, and you will be shown the metaphorical door.
@elia is free to have his opinions, in the case he'll bring his views against anyone contributing based on any of their mental or physical attributes, then it would be reason to tell him not to do that.
As you @strand, are free to not contribute to Opal, feel free to use any other Ruby to JavaScript technology.
The opal team, though, is not a technology. Contributing to a software project also means contributing to the works of others, requiring mutual respect.
Requesting contributions before being heard is a pretty low stab as well - you are basically saying that opinions gain worth with merit.
The personal views of a maintainer, as long as they are not influencing in a discriminatory way the contributions accepted in a project, should be off-limits for discussion IMHO. It pains me to see this even be an issue here. Thanks @meh for stating what should be obvious.
Damn. I found out about this project thanks to this issue, and it's super relevant to my interests. But not going to come near it with a thousand foot pole if these are the people I'd have to interact with.
To @meh and others who think that OSS is a moral-free zone: https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-dehumanizing-myth-of-the-meritocracy
Pro tip: you won't read it because you don't care.
The opal team, though, is not a technology. Contributing to a software project also means contributing to the works of others, requiring mutual respect.
Bingo. If developers can't trust the Opal team to treat them with respect, why would they want to use and contribute to Opal?
Is the Opal team really willing to value a single contributor now over hundreds of users and contributers in the future? Seems pretty short-sighted to me.
@skade @elia is not telling anyone to not contribute to Opal because of their mental or physical attributes, and there isn't any unwelcoming to anyone contributing, he's free to say anything he wants, like you are, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the project.
And requesting someone to be removed because of their views without even knowing what their work is, is as much of a low stab.
Protip: you won't because you can't.
Being this dismissive of someone is not really a great way to run an OSS project. You will lose out as people feel less welcome.
Also Coraline has been in the industry for many years, and is one of the most seasoned developers I know. This was not a fair stab.
@aredridel as long as you interact with the people about the technology, you will be welcome and treated with respect.
When you bring something completely unrelated, then you aren't, as simple as that. It's like I started talking about candy in here, it is not the place.
“The personal views of a maintainer, as long as they are not influencing in a discriminatory way the contributions accepted in a project” – the personal views of the maintainer influence even the contributions submitted to a project (including both patches and involvement in the community). They won’t be accepted because you never even get to see them.
“not telling anyone to not contribute to Opal” – no, but he’s dissuading them from participating just by espousing these biases.
Exactly: as long as I interact solely about the technology, and who I am is never mentioned, I'm welcome to participate and be respected. This is second class participation, and this is not respect.
@CoralineAda I won't read it because it is not relevant to the project.
If you want to tell people to not come near Opal because one of the people working on it doesn't like what you like, then feel free to, nobody is forcing anyone to use or not use Opal.
@aredridel you don't mention who you are because it doesn't matter, at all.
Why would you bring it up when asking questions or discussing something related to Opal? It's completely irrelevant.
You want an active contributer removed from the project because of his political views? Seriously? And you're calling him discriminatory? Sigh.
I really can't imagine myself not wanting to contribute to an OSS project until I have vetted the personal views on a variety of issues of every single maintainer. This is madness, and frankly it's very hard for me to believe that's actually what some of you are saying...
It's not the views: it's how he interacts with others. Views held close are hard to care about. Views taken out in public, about people in that public? That requires care and consideration.
@fivetanley because wanting a core contributor out because he doesn't like candy and you do is not dismissive?
I don't care how long @CoralineAda has been in the industry, this is irrelevant to the project.
@aredridel if he doesn't interact that way with people when talking about project related things, then it's not an issue for Opal.
Likening transphobia to a penchant for candy is offensive and belies a deeper ignorance. I guess this extends beyond @elia.
@CoralineAda in this particular situation, it is the exact same thing, you don't know anything about my views or who and what I am, and you never will, because it's irrelevant to technology.
@meh many of your views are easy to discern from your comments here.
All I'm saying: the reaction to this thread is a reason why I'd go from 'Oh, this software is cool' to "nope, not in a million years". It's that I've got the energy to spare that I'm willing to speak up and say something.
because wanting a core contributor out because he doesn't like candy and you do is not dismissive?
No, I'm saying you not even browsing Coraline's github to measure "merit" is dismissive; her work and expertise in ruby obviously speaks for itself.
Also comparing people to candy is really dehumanizing and makes me really sad. As someone who often works on JS transforms I had been interested in opal for a while, but now I won't contribute. The way you treat Coraline by not at least listening and asking questions, and also the way you are talking to me, tells me everything about the way you run the project.
Farewell. I'm sure others will be able to expound their views more clearly.
@aredridel you're welcome to use any other Ruby to JavaScript technologies, nobody is forcing you to use Opal or contribute to it.
If it works for you, use it, if it doesn't, don't.
@aredridel also I assure you, trying to deduce my views on these comments will lead you nowhere true.
@fivetanley because I'm sure @CoralineAda checked all @elia has done for Opal before coming here and wanting him out because they don't agree on things that have nothing to do with Opal itself.
If you want to see how the project is ran, check issues and discussions that were actually relevant to the project.
But as @CoralineAda said, you won't because you don't care.
No, I won't because of how THIS issue is being treated.
@aredridel and you're free to think and do what you think is best, godspeed.
@meh You've said that you're committed to creating a welcoming environment for new contributors. Saying that is easy. Doing that is hard. You're failing at it: right now, as a queer woman, I do not believe Opal would treat any contributions I might make fairly. I do not believe that I would be welcomed onto the project.
@bhaibel why do you even have to say who and what you are? It's irrelevant to any contribution, or question, or request for help, or discussion.
Want to talk about the technology? You're welcome to and you will be treated with respect.
Want to talk about what you're going to do on the weekend? This is not the place.
because wanting a core contributor out because he doesn't like candy and you do is not dismissive?
@meh jesus christ. this isn't about "not liking candy", you fucking muppet, it's about making public statements against a class of people based on a core part of who they are. this is not. the same. fucking. thing.
if someone has openly expressed hostility toward me or people like me in one context, of course I'm not going to be fucking comfortable interacting with them in another context.
@erisdev Stay civil. People are reading this.
You cannot separate people from the technology they create or the technology they use. Ever. It's not possible. I cannot work with people if they bring to the table with them the idea that I, as a human, am wrong about who I fundamentally am at my core. This isn't about someone's "political" views - it's about him not seeing some people as even being human
this is not respect right now, so it's obvious that we will not be treated with respect.
@jdax you can, if they don't bring those views when working together on the project. And why would they? It's irrelevant to the project.
Sometimes people don't like eachother, that's normal, you can't demand to like everyone you work with, that doesn't mean you can't work with them and then both of you go out with your own friends.
This issue is a case study in how the open source community systematically protects abusers and excludes LGBT developers. A white cisgender man can publicly claim that transgender people are delusional and suffer zero consequences in the open source community.
What do you think an LGBT developer thinks when they see this? Do they see a safe, welcoming environment where their identities and well-being will be respected and protected? Or a callous, self-serving machine that ruthlessly prioritises short-term technical goals over all else?
You can't divorce your choices from their sociopolitical context just because it's convenient for getting a bunch of code shipped. If you're choosing to collaborate with somebody despite knowing about their prejudice against the LGBT community, then that's a choice you're consciously making. It's a choice that reveals a personal belief system which prioritises code over people.
Maybe you're fine with that, but a growing number of us in the wider community of developers are not. I'm not attempting to change your mind. I just want to add my voice to those stating "this is not okay by me either". As much as I hate to spam your project's issue with a non-technical comment, I hate the idea of being complicit in my silence even more.
@aredridel because wanting a core contributor thrown out because of who they are is respectful?
I see a bunch of LGBT people talking about everything else besides code in this issue. I wasn't aware issue trackers were for people.
OSS projects are, at their core, about people. People who choose to come together to donate their time and attention to collaborate on a shared problem. Good technology is a side-effect of good people, well cared for. If you think you can produce technology without caring about people, you either misunderstand tech, or you are happy to limit your pool of contributors to people with a lot of privilege and a thick skin, i.e. the usual suspects: aggressive young white men.
We'll get to talking code if this is shown to be a place that's respectful. Turns out ... people shit on us all the time.
@andrewmcwatters I see a dude posting passive aggressive complaints about the topic and not adding anything to the conversation.
@meh I literally did not say you said it. it was the other guy, the guy this whole issue was about in the first place.
And what happens when I start commiting and someone who doesn't view LGBT people as human starts making commit messages that might look like funny in-jokes but use slurs? Or uses those slurs in issue trackers? Or the IRC channel? It's not my problem if I can't work with someone who doesn't think I'm even a human being. It's the problem of the person who thinks some people are more worthy of respect than others.
@meh if your key contributor spends his free time burning crosses in black people's back yards, would you consider that "political views"? "Leave him alone, he doesn't openly discriminate against black people in his code" feels pretty hollow.
Obviously not the same thing, but I draw the parallel because these aren't "I think the tax policy is stupid" type politics. The sort of views you're writing off as "politics" are views that actively discriminate against entire groups of people. Those people, oddly enough, don't want to work with or interact with said developer, and by extension, your project.
@andrewmcwatters That, right there, is a political statement.
@andrewmcwatters when I think about OSS, I think of community management, emotional labour, and risks to my mental health. That you don't is a product of your privilege.
This issue is a case study in how the open source community systematically protects abusers and excludes LGBT developers.
Nobody is being excluded in any way.
A white cisgender man can publicly claim that transgender people are delusional and suffer zero consequences in the open source community.
He can, because he has freedom of speech, he didn't write it anywhere in the project.
He's free to say that, and you're free to say that's not acceptable, that doesn't have anything to do with Opal.
What do you think an LGBT developer thinks when they see this? Do they see a safe, welcoming environment where their identities and well-being will be respected and protected? Or a callous, self-serving machine that ruthlessly prioritises short-term technical goals over all else?
What they see is their problem, if they cannot or do not want to work on a project when nobody is being excluded or ignored because of it, then, again, it's their problem.
If @elia had done that in an issue, on gitter, on the mailing list, on IRC, on StackOverflow, then I agree, that IS a problem and it should be fixed.
But that's not the case, he said that on HIS Twitter, stating HIS opinion, like you're stating YOURS.
You can't divorce your choices from their sociopolitical context just because it's convenient for getting a bunch of code shipped. If you're choosing to collaborate with somebody despite knowing about their prejudice against the LGBT community, then that's a choice you're consciously making. It's a choice that reveals a personal belief system which prioritises code over people.
Yes, it's a choice, you're free to not work with those people, it's YOUR choice.
Maybe you're fine with that, but a growing number of us in the wider community of developers are not. I'm not attempting to change your mind. I just want to add my voice to those stating "this is not okay by me either". As much as I hate to spam your project's issue with a non-technical comment, I hate the idea of being complicit in my silence even more.
It's not a problem of a project that someone has differing ideas, everyone has their own and they should learn to work together.
And how do they do that? Not by agreeing, but by knowing what is relevant and what is not.
Pretty sure that people write code, people review code and people release code. If said people are discriminatory towards contributors, there's absolutely no reason for the project to even bother being open if they can't shed bigoted views of the world to accept what would be a potential new long-time contributor to a project.
As others as mentioned, I'll personally blacklist all of the maintainer's projects.
SIDE-NOTE: Freedom of speech != hate speech. Just because you can say it doesn't mean it has to be tolerated.
btw folks get sacked all the fucking time from public-facing jobs (which being an OSS developer absolutely is! you interact with your users whenever they file bug reports or contribute to your project) for expressing hateful views like this.
Nobody is being excluded in any way.
This thread and how it is being handled pretty much means it'll be my only interaction with this project. That's exclusion, in practice if not rules.
OSS projects are, at their core, about people.
No, they're MADE by people, OSS projects are, at their core, projects.
People who choose to come together to donate their time and attention to collaborate on a shared problem.
Because they need it, they have no reason to show any prejudice when working together, why? Because it's irrelevant.
Good technology is a side-effect of good people, well organised. If you think you can produce technology without caring about people, you either misunderstand tech, or you are happy to limit your contributors to people with a lot of privilege and a thick skin, i.e. the usual suspects: aggressive young white men.
People do what they can do, and do not what they cannot, that's obvious.
@aredridel yep. classic "I don't see a problem so you must be making it up".
It's really quite telltale how every single post here discarding this as a non-issue so far was from white, presumably straight and cis dudes. Of course it's a non-issue for you. For others, not so much.
It's not a problem of a project that someone has differing ideas, everyone has their own and they should learn to work together.
There are things you can work together over, like "I think we should use tabs" and things you can't like "I'm going to defend slurs in commit messages, or state that this project is apolitical in a way that entrenches the existing contributors and their views"
Thank you for not trying to argue around the central theme of my comment, which is that you're a lousy person if you'll work with somebody like that just to get your damn code shipped.
And what happens when I start commiting and someone who doesn't view LGBT people as human starts making commit messages that might look like funny in-jokes but use slurs? Or uses those slurs in issue trackers? Or the IRC channel? It's not my problem if I can't work with someone who doesn't think I'm even a human being. It's the problem of the person who thinks some people are more worthy of respect than others.
Yes, if that is what happens, I agree, that's a problem and it must be fixed, as I already said.
But that's not what happened.
We'll get to talking code if this is shown to be a place that's respectful. Turns out ... people shit on us all the time.
How can it be shown as such if the situation doesn't arise?
Btw, half of this discussion wouldn't happen without the very harsh and personal answer @meh wrote when closing the issue. That answer expresses exactly what are his opinions about (the lack of) tech diversity. If this doesn't prove how individuals opinions are pervasive in OSS culture (not only tech), I don't know what does.
Pretty sure that people write code, people review code and people release code. If said people are discriminatory towards contributors, there's absolutely no reason for the project to even bother being open if they can't shed bigoted views of the world to accept what would be a potential new long-time contributor to a project.
I agree with that, if such a situation arose, it would be a problem, but it hasn't arisen.
As others as mentioned, I'll personally blacklist all of the maintainer's projects.
And you are free to do that.
SIDE-NOTE: Freedom of speech != hate speech. Just because you can say it doesn't mean it has to be tolerated.
I disagree, it's either total freedom of speech, or it's not freedom. Partial freedom is not freedom.
btw folks get sacked all the fucking time from public-facing jobs (which being an OSS developer absolutely is! you interact with your users whenever they file bug reports or contribute to your project) for expressing hateful views like this.
And the company employing them has the right to do so.
Freedom of speech != freedom from consequences. And if you say "trans people aren't human" you're gonna face some consequences. And right now you're consequences are people do not feel safe contributing to this project or using it!
Sounds like their problem when no one is stopping them.
@meh if your key contributor spends his free time burning crosses in black people's back yards, would you consider that "political views"? "Leave him alone, he doesn't openly discriminate against black people in his code" feels pretty hollow.
Yes, what he does in his free time is completely irrelevant.
Obviously not the same thing, but I draw the parallel because these aren't "I think the tax policy is stupid" type politics. The sort of views you're writing off as "politics" are views that actively discriminate against entire groups of people. Those people, oddly enough, don't want to work with or interact with said developer, and by extension, your project.
And they are free to do so. Want to use the technology? Use it. Do not want to? Don't.
@meh 
Well said. Keep these things separate.
Yes, what he does in his free time is completely irrelevant.
And yet it leads right back to here. "who is this guy?" "an opal developer. Says in his profile." He is representing this project.
Thank you for not trying to argue around the central theme of my comment, which is that you're a lousy person if you'll work with somebody like that just to get your damn code shipped.
And you're free to hold that opinion.
Freedom of speech != freedom from consequences. And if you say "trans people aren't human" you're gonna face some consequences. And right now you're consequences are people do not feel safe contributing to this project or using it!
If they cannot separate things, it's entirely their problem. They're free to disagree with @elia as @elia is free to disagree with them, that doesn't mean it will affect the interactions related to Opal.
Btw, half of this discussion wouldn't happen without the very harsh and personal answer @meh wrote when closing the issue. That answer express exactly what are his opinions about (the lack of) tech diversity. If this doesn't prove how individuals opinions are pervasive in OSS culture (not only tech), I don't know what does.
The issue was on the issue tracker of Opal, and the issue wasn't related to Opal, it was related to differing opinions of @CoralineAda and @elia, on words said outside of Opal.
And yet it leads right back to here. "who is this guy?" "an opal developer. Says in his profile." He is representing this project.
He is not representing anyone but himself. If you let what and who is affect your decision on using something he works on, it would be the same as he having his decisions affected on what and who anyone else is, which is the core of the issue at hand.
@jedstraw There's more than one side to this story. If you want to encourage a friendly development ecosystem, you need to start with yourself.
@jedstraw @andrewmcwatters good, I don't want you using my software. do you think this is some kind of joke?
It's really quite telltale how every single post here discarding this as a non-issue so far was from white, presumably straight and cis dudes. Of course it's a non-issue for you. For others, not so much.
As I said, you don't know, and never will know, who and what I am, because it's irrelevant.
@erisdev No, we don't. But you just publicly discriminated against us for our religious beliefs. Do you see the disconnect here?
@meh Exactly.
@jedstraw is a newly registered account to sockpuppet this issue.
The issue was on the issue tracker of Opal, and the issue wasn't related to Opal, it was related to differing opinions of @CoralineAda and @elia, on words said outside of Opal.
What basis did you have to say @CoralineAda couldn't contribute if she wanted to, other than your own prejudice against people advocating social justice? That contradicts the core of your argument. Opinions do matter in an OSS project. Unless you're ok with only receiving contribution from straight white dudes. Or not even that, speaking for myself.
@aredridel Yes, it's a newly registered account. I'm not stupid. I don't want to be blackballed in the industry for having conservative religious beliefs.
@jedstraw @andrewmcwatters cool gaslight brah.
@erisdev ?
As I said, you don't know, and never will know, who and what I am, because it's irrelevant.
From this thread, it sounds like you're a robot incapable of human emotions and empathy. Which is just terrible for leading popular open source projects (> 2500 stars!).
@myfreeweb Wouldn't that be the perfect open source contributor? No prejudices, no hate, no emotions at all.
A passion for a project is helpful. But no prejudices or hate should exist within the realm of open source software unless it pertains to development decisions like hating semicolon insertion. :)
@jebrosmund turns out FOSS projects are also human communities and human communities need human leadership that treats humans humanely. because what exactly is software for if it's not for people?
@erisdev Maybe you should treat others politely first, then.
What basis did you have to say @CoralineAda couldn't contribute if she wanted to, other than your own prejudice against people advocating social justice?
It was a response in the same tone. I treat respect with respect, wanting a core member out because of differing opinions is not respectful.
That contradicts the core of your argument. Opinions do matter in an OSS project. Unless you're ok with only receiving contribution from straight white dudes. Or not even that, speaking for myself.
I'm okay with anyone contributing as long as they contribute. This was not a contribution, the issue was unrelated to Opal.
@andrewmcwatters there was hostility here before I came in, it just wasn't as strongly worded. "politeness" doesn't mean a lot when it's just being lorded over people who feel hurt by something to dismiss their arguments or concerns.
@erisdev I think you confuse hostility with differing opinions.
Sometimes people have opinions that shouldn't ever be respected or tolerated in any community, no matter what that community is building. And "trans people aren't human" is one of them. Fin.
From this thread, it sounds like you're a robot incapable of human emotions and empathy. Which is just terrible for leading popular open source projects (> 2500 stars!).
For all you know I might be a dog, regardless, there's no reason to lead a project as long as everyone is respectful of eachother when interacting about the project, and there's no reason to not be respectful of eachother while interacting about the project because anything unrelated to the project is irrelevant to the project, and thus should not be discussed on the means used to interact about the project.
@andrewmcwatters opinions can be hostile dude. they do not exist in a vacuum.
@andrewmcwatters there was hostility here before I came in, it just wasn't as strongly worded.
I agree, there was hostility from the start, the issue opener wanted to throw a core contributor out because of differing opinions stated outside of the project.
@meh hypothetical/hyperbolic question: would you work with a child molester if he produced good code?
Yes.
@meh
Haha yes, of course you can act cool and be able to "keep things separate", because it doesn't affect you.
What if the child molester would have molested your own children? What if the racist you have to work with would have beat your mother because he/she doesn't like her skin color? Or do this continuously? Or maybe something else that is very bad but difficult to prove?
So according to what you write, you would charge these people legally (so far possible, so far the law is on your side, so far you can prove it) and then continue happily working with them cause it's only "about the project".
Yes, sure.
What makes for you guys so easy to be objective and focused in the project is that nobody is attacking you as a person, or things that matter to you. You would not be able to keep this cool otherwise.
Questioning my right to exist with human dignity is not a "differing opinion", sorry.
@z44lx You would call the police.
You can’t possibly think that “stop being offended; you’re not supposed to be offended” is going to work, right? How many times has something like this played out where that did work? How many conferences that “didn’t need a code of conduct” played out with everyone saying “actually, yeah, meritocracy totally works?” This isn’t a particularly new or interesting approach, and every time I’ve seen it play out the public sentiment for that project becomes “it’s a shame they were so shitty; it could have been a decent project.”
People are flooding into an issue thread to tell you that the way your maintainer(s) are acting is reflecting poorly on your project, and you’re going with “nuh-uh because people shouldn’t feel that way?” You must be smarter than that. I don’t particularly care what you do from here, but good luck riding this bomb into the ground.
I am deeply hurt and offended by the amount of hate and arrogance expressed in this thread.
Some outrageous accusations have been spun here based on no more than a few careless words in a medium that, by the way, makes any thoughtful interaction impossible by design - twitter. Soon, nobody even remembers or cares how it started, the snowball effect sets in.
Your misplaced anger genuinely scares me. Where can I hide from it? I already do not use social media, should I quit GitHub as well?
Please stop. Let us work on code here, and take the angry lynch mob back to wherever it is angry lynch mobs hang out nowadays. And remember, angry lynch mobs come in all shapes and colors, but, at the end of the day, an angry lynch mob is an angry lynch mob.
For what it's worth now that you do not perceive me as one of your own (the other, lynch mobs call it), @elia is one of the gentlest and kind people I had the pleasure of working with on "the internets".
Haha yes, of course you can act cool and be able to "keep things separate", because it doesn't affect you.
It's called being coolheaded.
What if the child molester would have molested your own children? What if the racist you have to work with would have beat your mother because he/she doesn't like her skin color? Or do this continuously? Or maybe something else that is very bad but difficult to prove?
So according to what you write, you would charge these people legally (so far possible, so far the law is on your side, so far you can prove it) and then continue happily working with them cause it's only "about the project".
Yes, exactly, that doesn't mean I would like that person, but it also doesn't mean it would affect the interactions on the project.
Yes, sure.
What makes for you guys so easy to be objective and focused in the project is that nobody is attacking you as a person, or things that matter to you. You would not be able to keep this cool otherwise.
I always "keep my cool", there's no reason not to.
Questioning my right to exist with human dignity is not a "differing opinion", sorry.
It is a "differing opinion", you think you have the right to exist with human dignity, he does not.
@erisdev You pretty much are an angry lynch mob. Someone shouted "Witch! Witch!" and you follow.
Do anyone pressing the "charges" here know the person in question at all?
^
I always "keep my cool", there's no reason not to.
Yes, your "always" is a privileged "always". Anyone else probably would be able able to "keep cool" in that situation. You probably never have experienced anything near to the examples I provided, otherwise you would not be talking like that.
And anyway, given the improbable case that you are actually that cool and can work with somebody who beats your mother, I doubt this is the case for the majority of people.
What the hell is wrong with keeping code and politics separate? Does everything have to be politically correct?
Please stop. Let us work on code here, and take the angry lynch mob back to wherever it is angry lynch mobs hang out nowadays. And remember, angry lynch mobs come in all shapes and colors, but, at the end of the day, an angry lynch mob is an angry lynch mob.
Did anyone call for this person's death? Torture? Loss of employment? Suffering? I don't think anyone in this thread has called for @elia to experience so much as a hangnail.
Your hyperbole is sad and reflects a life lived in a protective bubble. Sharing it hurts your community.
For what it's worth now that you do not perceive me as one of your own (the other, lynch mobs call it), @elia is one of the gentlest and kind people I had the pleasure of working with on "the internets".
There is nothing gentle about questioning the humanity of an entire class of people publicly. Nothing at all.
Yes, your "always" is a privileged "always". Anyone else probably would be able able to "keep cool" in that situation. You probably never have experienced anything near to the examples I provided, otherwise you would not be talking like that.
As I said, you don't know anything about who or what I am, or what I have gone through, and you never will, because it's not relevant.
And anyway, given the improbable case that you are actually that cool and can work with somebody who beats your mother, I doubt this is the case for the majority of people.
And that is their problem, what is illegal is illegal, and should be reported, doesn't mean it has to affect their work.
https://twitter.com/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fopal%2Fopal%2Fissues%2F941&src=typd
You have a lot of ‘level-headed and rational’ debating to do, @meh. You’re gonna be busy.
"It is a "differing opinion", you think you have the right to exist with human dignity, he does not."
Yeah, there is a right to human dignity.
(Universal Declaration of Human Rights)[http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/]
@Wilto Thanks for this great example of lynching.
"It is a "differing opinion", you think you have the right to exist with human dignity, he does not."
Yeah, there is a right to human dignity.
(Universal Declaration of Human Rights)[http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/]
Who is right and who is wrong doesn't make those things not opinions.
@jebrosmund I don’t understand; just go talk them out of it?
@Wilto Isn't it other people who should be making the appeal to him? It's his codebase. If you wanted a contributor removed, this isn't the way to go about it.
@jedstraw oh yes, using "fuck" as an intensifier to express my overwhelming sense of frustration is morally equivalent to literally claiming that a class of people are delusional.
@meh I'm not sure what conclusion you think I should be coming to, but so far I've seen y'all defending this guy's bigotry as "just an opinion" (as if we didn't already know it's an opinion) as if that somehow makes it above criticism. just bear in mind that people use their opinions to determine future actions.
Then what is the way to go about getting a contributor removed? Can you point me to the code of conduct so I can see the formal process?
@erisdev You want respect, but aren't respectful.
What the hell is wrong with keeping code and politics separate? Does everything have to be politically correct?
@ipsumx You must have a lot of privilege if you think of "politics" as something that can be separated from everything. People's humanity is dismissed, and for you it's just some "politics" you don't care about.
@andrewmcwatters I want "respect" as in "to be treated like a proper human being" and you seem to want "respect" as in "for me to defer to you as an authority"
@andrewmcwatters Now, I’m no expert on basic human interaction, but when a large and disconnected network of people are very upset with how a situation was handled it may mean that the situation was handled poorly. Do you think that might be what people are upset about?
@myfreeweb Well. I really wouldn't give a shit if he was literally Hitler. There, Godwin's law.
Why should it matter if your interactions with him are abstracted entirely through code?
Isn't it other people who should be making the appeal to him? It's his codebase. If you wanted a contributor removed, this isn't the way to go about it.
in reference to:
Elia Schito is publicly calling trans people out for "not accepting reality" on Twitter. His Twitter profile mentions that he is a core contributor to opal. Is this what the other maintainers want to be reflected in the project? Will any transgender developers feel comfortable contributing?
yeah, you're right. Calmly asking a question of the maintainers in hopes that they would respond kindly was wildly inappropriate.
She didn't even actually ask for Elia's removal from the project. She asked whether this was what the maintainers wanted to be associated to.
Also, the answer appears to be an emphatic 'Yes.' I am quite glad that I have no need to cross compile Ruby to JS, since this seems like an otherwise good option for how to do so, but one that I will never use and actively advocate against for the foreseeable future. Not (primarily) because of Elia's comment, but because of the flippant and disrespectful handling of an honest, respectfully phrased question and the rampant disregard for human rights expressed here.
@jedstraw idgaf about whatever word games you're trying to play with me
And anyway, given the improbable case that you are actually that cool and can work with somebody who beats your mother, I doubt this is the case for the majority of people.
And that is their problem, what is illegal is illegal, and should be reported, doesn't mean it has to affect their work.
Thanks for proving your argumentation is neither serious nor well intended. Of course nobody can prove that you would not be able to work with people that constantly violate your dignity, human rights, etc. or concerning this example beat your mother. You can say you would be able to nicely cooperate with them.
That's the good thing about being privileged, you can always say "if I were in your position I would...". And you can say what you want, and nobody is going to prove you wrong, because you will never be in that position.
@erisdev 'idgaf' really portrays how professional you hold yourself in public.
I'm also upset with how this network of people are attacking @meh. I hold the same opinion he seems to hold, which is keep code in codebases, and leave issues trackers to issues about code.
So if someone does need to be removed from a team, irrespective of the reason, where should that discussion go, in your mind?
@meh I'm not sure what conclusion you think I should be coming to, but so far I've seen y'all defending this guy's bigotry as "just an opinion" (as if we didn't already know it's an opinion) as if that somehow makes it above criticism. just bear in mind that people use their opinions to determine future actions.
I've never said that, what I said is that this is not the place to discuss opinions and views that aren't related to Opal.
And that his opinions are irrelevant to the project, he did and does good work, and his views have never shown or affected his behavior when interacting on means used to interact about the project or while interacting about the project.
@andrewmcwatters: Now, have you considered that those people are the same kind of angry with you and @meh, in terms of feeling “attacked?” I don’t care about “debating” you; I want you to just stop and think about how you’re feeling right now, and how other people in this thread might feel a lot like that, and I am going to leave you to that. No need to reply.
@andrewmcwatters I never claimed to be a professional. that was your claim. professionalism shouldn't be a prerequisite for human dignity.
Then what is the way to go about getting a contributor removed? Can you point me to the code of conduct so I can see the formal process?
The only way would be to kill him or make him unable to write code, since he could as easily fork and keep maintaining them and merging back from upstream, and in case his version was better, people would use that instead.
And either way, there is no reason to remove him because he has always been respectful when interacting with anyone about the project.
@Wilto That's a good point, but I also don't request that all my atheist friends be removed from projects because they bash religious individuals in their free time. It has nothing to do with code.
This is what lynching looks like
https://upload.wikimedia.org/--[remove_this]--wikipedia/en/7/78/ThomasShippAbramSmith.jpg
This is not.
https://twitter.com/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fopal%2Fopal%2Fissues%2F941&src=typd
If you cannot see the difference, probably speaking in public is not for you.
Just close this.
@erisdev In plain english: why would you cause inharmony when trying to make a statement about a public relations issue to people if you want others to encourage harmony in the open source community.
Why should it matter if your interactions with him are abstracted entirely through code?
Because I would not willingly contribute to Hitler's happiness, well-being, or efficacy. This seems obvious, why did you find it to be a question worth asking?
there is no reason to remove him because he has always been respectful when interacting with anyone about the project.
Of course. Because many people did not interact with him (and the project) because they felt excluded by his public comments!
Of course. Because many people did not interact with him (and the project) because they felt excluded by his public comments!
And that is entirely their problem, if they choose to do so, they're free to.
But that decision is entirely based on assumptions, and not what actually happened.
ERMERGERD TEH DRAMA
@luisrudge It is already closed, unless you were talking to your own browser.
You have a lot of ‘level-headed and rational’ debating to do, @meh. You’re gonna be busy.
I will try to respond to everyone.
Wow. I admire your dedication. I probably would have given up trying to respond to everyone a long time ago, and just posted a long blog post summarizing my view. Anyway, considering the huge number of people involved here this might take a while.
For the record, I support your position on this and agree with most of what you've said here so far. Know though that this drama is far more likely to attract the attention of those who disagree with you than with those who do, and, as with any internet debate, you're very unlikely to convince anyone to adopt your viewpoint on the matter.
Anyway, good luck with the mob. Hopefully all this drama will die down in a couple days and you can go back to writing code.
@ipsumx absolutely not, but holding opinions that are hostile to other members of the team is kind of a big damn no-no because it can and does lead to bad feelings and possibly conflict.
bad feelings of course might not sound like a lot to you but just knowing someone feels that way about you is absolutely draining and will affect a person's ability to, you know, do their job. good mental health is important.
@to-json I find the philosophical exercise enticing.
Statistically speaking, by anonymously working with a lot people on OSS projects you would be collaborating with a wide variety of people having wildly differing opinions*. They would surely include molesters, neo-nazis, rapists and all sorts of scum. Are we to vet all of these people as to ensure harmony within the group, or just accept their good code as is, morals notwithstanding?
Protip: you are bitching against the 2nd top contributor to the 3rd top contributor that is defending him and the 1st top contributor didn't even showed here. You can cry and huff and puff, it's useless. If you don't like it, fork it or stfu.
@juanplopes sorry. the right name is locking :) https://help.github.com/articles/locking-conversations/
So, just lock this.
@luisrudge It's far wiser to just let people vent.
Know though that this drama is far more likely to attract the attention of those who disagree with you than with those who do, and, as with any internet debate, you're very unlikely to convince anyone to adopt your viewpoint on the matter.
It's okay, I'm not trying to convince anyone, everyone is free to hold their opinion.
Anyway, good luck with the mob. Hopefully all this drama will die down in a couple days and you can go back to writing code.
Don't worry, I'm writing code as we speak 
@erisdev You really want people to listen to you, but you speak to others that way? How crass.
Statistically speaking, by anonymously working with a lot people on OSS projects you would be collaborating with a wide variety of people having wildly differing opinions*. They would surely include molesters, neo-nazis, rapists and all sorts of scum. Are we to vet all of these people as to ensure harmony within the group, or just accept their good code as is, morals notwithstanding?
This is a bit of a straw man. No one asked for vetting. However, if a contributor is shown, explicitly and relatively obviously, to be socially problematic, I do feel like that discussion merits more than:
If you want him removed, start working on Opal and contributing as much as him to everything he did for Opal so we have a replacement that's more in orientation with your morals and views.
Protip: you won't because you can't.
The insult is superfluous (and unmerited, @CoralineAda is pretty good) and the dismissal is off-putting.
@erisdev You're being quite patronizing.
I'm sorry if your feelings have been hurt, but it's not your right to be offended.
It's astonishing that today, of all days, with the Charleston victims' bodies barely cold, with the Memphis shooting all over the news, people have the nerve to compare anything on the internet to a lynch mob.
No one's body is hanging from any goddamned tree. Don't trivialize years' worth of black people's deaths by elevating your hurt feelings at criticism to that level of importance.
Is there a point to all this?
I'm serious. The contributing team is not going to change over this, and noone is likely to change their opinions either.
I suppose people can try to be right on the internet, but don't think that's a very rewarding endeavour.
@andrewmcwatters try engaging with me on a deeper level than "your language is unprofessional". what does it accomplish?
@ipsumx I think you're the one being patronizing tbh. I'm not asking to NOT BE OFFENDED. I'm asking to NOT BE REGARDED AS SUBHUMAN.
All these tears from the perpetually offended that don't want to put the effort to create the project they want and instead keep crying for others to adapt to their demands. qq moar.
Due to the comments of @elia and @meh on this issue I will be actively recommending people to stay away from Opal. I hope that the suggestion for a Code of Conduct will be taken seriously and then strictly adhered to if it is approved.
Then, perhaps, the maintainers of this can have learned that exclusionary behavior is not ok and that dealing with it by dismissing complaints is the opposite of useful. Then I'll be comfortable recommending Opal again.
For the record - I don't think @elia needs to be removed, but I think this is a good learning opportunity for them and the team.
@adambeynon In the other ticket, @CoralineAda linked a code of conduct, which I quite find matching. I also don't find anything in there forbidding @elia from stating his own opinions.
@jedstraw yeah, just keep poking and prodding at little details of how I've said it and maybe you won't have to actually argue against anything I've said. dude has not contributed anything to the conversation so far other than trying to rile people up and you're coming after me.
@erisdev I'm pretty sure that whoever we are, there will always be someone somewhere in the world that will always regard us as a subhuman.
What's exciting is that is this arena, you can choose to ignore that fact and still work together as a team, producing excellent code. And not ever talk to each other about anything unrelated! :D
@abritinthebay So what's your point then?
I talked with @elia when I saw this thread... I'm pretty convinced that he's not a terrible person. That said, the way this issue has been handled, particularly the tenor with which the issue was closed is... off-putting to say the least. In other words, as not terrible as @elia may or may not be, @meh has more than made up for it in their interactions here.
As a demi-romantic transsracial toaskerkin, all this drama is triggering me.
@ipsumx Exactly my point. The whole point of this issue is to hurt elia's professional life for stating his opinion & now it hurts this project too.
While I disagree with comments of the nature mentioned in the original post of this issue thread, I also disagree with such comments being used as a means of preventing someone from contributing code to a project.
Code is code, and if it's bad code, I'd hope it wouldn't be merged to such a project. Having said that, good code is good code and if someone contributes good code that would otherwise improve a project, is there really an expectation to ignore such code?
Obviously there's an issue of representation if said person is associated with the team and the team ends up being represented negatively as a whole, but representing the team negatively is pretty stupid for the reason I've given above, as is representing a corporation negatively when a single employee makes hateful comments.
@shockkolate How is this obvious, corporations are regularly held responsible for comments by high-ranking officials/leads and for good reasons?
@shockkolate people are fired from corporations for this. Why shouldn't people be banned from community projects for this?
I'm out, got better things to waste my life on than arguing over my right to exist. thread unsubscribed, don't bother tagging me, bye.
While I find the views expressed by @elia repulsive, to all those walking away from the project due to @elia's beliefs, if you knew the beliefs of all the maintainers/contributors of all the software you use (OSS or otherwise) I'd gamble that you would be left with very little.
Surely the best way to tackle this is not to walk away, but stick with it and try to educate and explain to people in the community their views are offensive and ill-judged. This is by far more work, but I feel the best approach.
This is the thread where noone wins.
This conversation is a bunch of stupid bullshit anyways, @Valarissa
I might as well play in the mud.
I think because the transracial issue is only now coming to the forefront, it might be wise to give @elia some understanding in that regard, as he, like many others, are not yet aware of how to speak about the situation. The conversation has beens started, and that is good. Can anyone recommend any transracial people on twitter that we can start following or bring into the conversation to help?
@alexhitchins beliefs != public comments && this issue is an attempt at educating and explaining.
The whole point of this issue is to hurt elia's professional life for stating his opinion & now it hurts this project too.
Is it? Again, the opening post:
Elia Schito is publicly calling trans people out for "not accepting reality" on Twitter. His Twitter profile mentions that he is a core contributor to opal. Is this what the other maintainers want to be reflected in the project? Will any transgender developers feel comfortable contributing?
So I see a statement of fact (preceded by a link), another statement of fact, and 2 honest questions, none of which call for harm to Elia, or even allege that there is something explicitly wrong with his behaviour. Where is the intent to harm?
The only thing that will come out of this is bad PR for Opal.
@jebrosmund FOSS don't need people. People need FOSS. The core contributors haven't changed, the project isn't hurt in any way.
This is the thread where noone wins.
The idea that a thread can be 'won' is the root of many, many social problems in tech. These are real people discussing real experiences, and attempting to sum that to a victor is using the wrong algorithm to handle the data.
As an open source developper I strongly disagree that open source is not about moral and ethics.
Hey GNU licence was created to make people able to control the technology they use, it's all but moralless !
I don't work on web technology but if I have to in the future, I will do my best not to use Opal in my projects until the issue is solved in a satisfactory maneer (ie public apologies from @elia or his commit rights being reduced), and will ask my teammate to use others techs as much as possible and not to contribute.
@alexhitchins "This is by far more work, but I feel the best approach." Yes, it is. It is a lot of work. It is a lot of time, emotional energy, and banging of heads against walls. It is exhausting. We, queer people, are expected to constantly be politely asking for basic respect. It's degrading and when you don't do it, you get blamed for the disrespect you get. When you do ask, no matter how polite, you're told it wasn't polite enough.
@vjl where's the use in his commits rights being reduced? Will that change what he thinks about people?
As a transfriend seeing this kind of attitude in the Ruby community is discouraging me from ever learning it. This is why people say the tech industry is unwelcoming to diversities: unless @elia is removed from the project, I cannot learn Ruby, and thus can't get a job in Ruby development.
I hope you will listen to the public opinion and do what you have to do.
Surely the best way to tackle this is not to walk away, but stick with it and try to educate and explain to people in the community their views are offensive and ill-judged. This is by far more work, but I feel the best approach.
@alexhitchins I get what you're saying. But the beginning of that process is for people to see that there are real consequences for bigotry in the open source community. That awareness spreads slowly, via incidents like these. Until people understand that their bigoted opinions will lead to informal social sanctions, what incentive is there for them to spend time learning and re-evaluating those opinions?
@lleaff so you want to blame elia for not finding a job?
@lleaff you should sue him!
@jdax Actually, in this case someone has "politely" asked for someone to be severed from a project for their beliefs.
@jdax And that's oppression.
@andrewmcwatters Some beliefs don't deserve respect. Those beliefs undeserving are usually somewhere along the lines of "this group of people aren't humans."
@jdax Did he say that, word-for-word?
@jdax, That's not what I read in the tweet. That sounds like slander to me. You basically write off his beliefs and result to slander. You are literally a slanderous person unless you can prove to me he said that.
@andrewmcwatters @mrseth @jedstraw did I say he said that? Or did I give an example of opinions that aren't to be respected?
That is bollocks. There are social issues and there are tech issues. But you don't even develop, what do you know about tech
Correction, I don't even do FOSS. I don't like dealing with the attitude that someone's intellect excuses their class B personality disorder and the inevitable accompanying disgusting behaviour.
Read the issue title.
Since we've all been super pedantic the whole thread, it's worth noting that the thread title is a statement of opinion more than a CTA. That said, I stand (kinda) corrected.
@jedstraw Well he clearly implied a lot of things himself.
@jdax You are a slanderous and disrespectful person.
@shockkolate people are fired from corporations for this. Why shouldn't people be banned from community projects for this?
Because those are PR stunts, and the company would be affected negatively otherwise, this is not a company, it's a technology, we're not making any money off it, we're working on it in our free time, we're putting our time and effort into it because we care about the technology.
If @elia brought his views in the issue tracker, mailing list, IRC channel, etcetera, there would be a problem, but he did it on his personal Twitter.
@andrewmcwatters easy now with the ad-hominems.
@andrewmcwatters /shrug. I'm not the one saying I'd let child molesters on my team.
@jdax If you don't care about what you're doing here, please don't do it.
@jdax And you invalid other people's work, too.
Freedom of speech should be freedom for both sides. I support transgender people, but I don't support this kind of hatred. As in that quote
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it
Protip: all the ones mad are the ones who don't actually collaborate.
This thread is so perfectly highlighting the toxic culture that drove me out of the Ruby community. Kudos to @meh for being willing to serve as such an extreme example of the issues we face in working with FOSS contributors.
As a trans* software developer, I must fulfill my moral obligation of warning everyone I know who expresses an interest in Opal: its contributors actively cultivate a hostile environment toward queer developers.
So you don't even collaborate to FOSS and just hangs around poking on stuff you don't know and doesn't concern you?
It concerns me because in the beautiful hypothetical future where FOSS isn't overrun by sociopaths I'd rather enjoy it. Philosophically the act of writing FOSS resonates with me but the community is often rather abhorrent.
If it was me managing this, I would just prevent more comments on this issue.
@emilyrose Did you ever use contact ANY contributor of Opal? If not, you don't have the right to warn anyone of anything.
@jebrosmund If @elia don't apologize then reducing his rights is a way for Opal to tell his views are his owns and aren't shared by the whole project.
"Reducing right" can be removing all commit access of course.
Would like to remind people of the definition of Bigotry
"intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself."
The inability to work with someone whose views you disagree with is bigotry. If @elia is unable to work with people who hold opposing views, then he'd be a bigot. You're going to have to prove that. Right now many of you are proving yourselves to be bigots.
Inability to talk to those you disagree with is the mark of an intolerant/ignorant mind.
@mrseth We're doing what must done for this to happen: making it socially unacceptable to have an opinion that discriminates people.
@to-json So instead of building this community you would like to have, you just wait with arms crossing yelling that the people are the ones who should change?
Nah, I've also been scratching my own itches, practicing, reading, writing throwaway projects, making local forks that never get merged, etc. Not that this is your business of course, but for transparency's sake.
Edit: Also, characterizing my participation as yelling is a master yogi stretch, yo.
@juanplopes no, you are toxic bigoted parasites.
Clearly you're not going to have a change of heart when you're on the defensive like this (I get the schtick, you're the "super rational programmer" who can dismiss all complaints with "logic", and when someone doubles down on that persona they don't tend to back down) so I'm not gonna even try to change your mind about the original issue, but I've gotta say:
Dude, you are burning a ton of bridges for yourself and Opal right now. I'm sure you'll say you don't care about people not liking or using or contributing to your project, which, who knows, maybe is true—but do you really wanna be that guy who people don't want to work with because you're too much of a dick? You know that being a good programmer and a good person aren't mutually exclusive, right?
@juanplopes I disagree that that is a wise move. It will not and cannot ever happen, since those people in question will be able to use anonymity to mask their identities.
@myfreeweb & @hnrysmth - I take on your points. I think this is one step towards educating people and sanctions are sometimes appropriate. Can't help but think you are more likely to influence change with continued education rather than removing someone. It could well be the case however that removing @elia would have a greater impact. Whatever happens, I hope he sees that the majority of people here find his views towards transgender people completely unacceptable either way.
@jebrosmund If @elia don't apologize then reducing his rights is a way for Opal to tell his views are his owns and aren't shared by the whole project.
"Reducing right" can be removing all commit access of course.
That's a bad way to state that, and it's been stated in this issue, and in case the code of conduct pull request does come in, that will be another statement.
@emilyrose I only see cats: https://twitter.com/opal
By the way, Coraline is a really fantastic and seasoned developer and a genuinely kind person. She works so hard here in Chicago to help make our field inclusive and get people excited about open source and programming in general. There was absolutely no reason to respond to her like that right off the bat, even if you didn't agree. Your beliefs are only part of why people are upset with you—the rest of it is that you're just being a jerk.
Well, @meh... you closed the issue without discussion. you tweeted some really dismissive things. the official opal twitter account retweeted those tweets.
I closed the issue and explained why, I did not lock it, the discussion happened and is still happening.
The retweet was of the statement for the reason, this is a technology, what @elia says on his own Twitter or whatever is his opinion, and he has the right to state his opinion.
No contributor said "yeah, @elia is totally right" or "no, @elia is totally wrong", what has been stated by other contributors is that this is a technology, and what @elia says on his own Twitter or whatever is his opinion, and he has the right to state his opinion.
I don't need any more evidence.
And you're free to have your opinion without any more evidence to the contrary.
Btw., Elia is such a fantastic and seasoned developer. He's #2 developer for a big open source project and has shown great dedication to his work. His skills in Ruby and other programming languages are almost unmatched and he never failed to respond to issues in said projects.
By discriminating those people?
@meh If the State ensures freedom by enforcing laws, is that taking freedom away, or making sure everyone gets a fair share of it?
A cool aspect of this thread is pointing out a bunch of GH accounts I can follow belonging to people I'd be interested in collaborating with, as they evidence their concern for the human element alongside the technology. Every time this sort of thing happens, it yields a list of good people who are also developers, a list that is far harder to compile than a list of good developers. Yay, progress, even in a shitshow!
@to-json For me, it gives me a list of people to block.
For me, it gives me a list of people to block.
Feel free (encouraged, even!) to start with me 
@jebrosmund So long, and take @mrseth with you. :)
Dude, you are burning a ton of bridges for yourself and Opal right now. I'm sure you'll say you don't care about people not liking or using or contributing to your project, which, who knows, maybe is true—but do you really wanna be that guy who people don't want to work with because you're too much of a dick? You know that being a good programmer and a good person aren't mutually exclusive, right?
If they base their opinion on me being "a dick" and hard to work with based on what people who have never worked with me say, then yeah, I don't mind.
And you have no information to know if I'm a good person or not, and never will, because I don't mix things that are irrelevant to eachother.
@meh, Please stop responding, This issue is being linked all over the internet, several forums are targeting this project and raiding it right now.
I highly recommend going into damage control mode and just not replying to these posts. There isn't constructive discussion going on anymore, its people with hurt feelings going out for their way for revenge guised as justice.
I can't believe this issue hasn't been locked yet. Between the endless circular arguments and sockpuppet troll accounts this has completely run it's course.
There's a lot of heated crap being posted in this thread.
@meh - would you at least agree that the statements made on that Twitter post are not representative of how the Opal project wishes to present itself to the world?
If that's true - acknowledging that would go at least some way to moving forward (aside from the trolls in here).
Hey everybody,
Seems like we have an exciting conversation going. I just got here, is there anyway I can get a tl;dr?
I hope everyone has a fantastic day!
@Lolniggers lol mystery meat. Vegans are funny.
@meh If the State ensures freedom by enforcing laws, is that taking freedom away, or making sure everyone gets a fair share of it?
It wouldn't be taking freedoms away, there has never been the freedom to bring personal views unrelated to the technology onto issues, IRC, mailing list, etc.
It would simply be a statement of the obvious. With the code of conduct @elia would still be able to do what he did, and not to do what he never did.
@lolnigger AND MAYBE THE EVEN DIDN'T MEAN IT LIKE THIS
Caveat: I am merely a member of the peanut gallery (and the queer community, and of the Ruby community at large) who has been watching this unfold for the past few hours.
I don't think that @elia was speaking out of malice, but out of ignorance, and my first instinct would be to contact him privately and explain why what he said was entirely out of line. He might not realize it.
I do think that there has been a lot of vitriol in this discussion, from both sides of the argument, and that's frustrating to see. This is definitely a topic worth discussing, though arguably this isn't the best venue for it. And the discussion hasn't gone anywhere in awhile. Plus, the trolls have arrived.
(oh look the fools who throw around "SJW" like it doesn't make them look stupid are here... yeesh)
@CBElizabeth - that's a great perspective.
And you have no information to know if I'm a good person or not, and never will, because I don't mix things that are irrelevant to eachother.
For a long time I held that this was the only way to be; that the separation of concerns was the only way to optimize for correctness. However, it turns out that programmers are arrogant and correctness is actually rather easy. What's hard is rallying a group of people who are pleasant to be around with a wide variety of experiences and perspective to contribute. So solving for that by working only with people that actively affirm their decency is worth the effort, as it yields teams who intentionally cross the streams, like Loomio's, to good effect.
@abritinthebay Oh yeah, and is TOTTALY reasonable to ask for the 2nd top contributor to be removed because he had a different opinion on an unrelated social issue. You guys are surely not looking like idiots.
@meh, Please stop responding, This issue is being linked all over the internet, several forums are targeting this project and raiding it right now.
I highly recommend going into damage control mode and just not replying to these posts. There isn't constructive discussion going on anymore, its people with hurt feelings going out for their way for revenge guised as justice.
I know, but it would be rude to not reply to them, and it would go against what I stated previously if I were to lock the issue.
Thanks tho
@CBElizabeth You nailed it.
@mrseth - If you read my comment further up, I agreed that was not the right thing to do. @CBElizabeth seems to have the same view btw.
But the trolls in here throwing around "SJW" like it doesn't make them look like the same hateful idiots that give tech a bad name aren't even discussing the issue - preferring to post under troll accounts.
@meh - would you at least agree that the statements made on that Twitter post are not representative of how the Opal project wishes to present itself to the world?
If that's true - acknowledging that would go at least some way to moving forward (aside from the trolls in here).
That's already been stated in this issue and in the official Opal twitter account, Opal has no opinions since it's a project.
@CoralineAda https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/611576768709787649 are you implying that anti-racism messages should only apply to white people?
I hope you understand that that, in itself, is racist
@meh when you have someone named @LolNiggers defending you it's probably time to stop and reevaluate.
@ChrisPickard or just stop discussion, as troll takes over.
Opal has no opinions since it's a project.
@meh - I don't know you, but you seem level headed (and are dealing with this shitstorm quite level headedly btw, even if we disagree). But... this shows an astounding level of ignorance of how the OSS community - and people even - works.
That's never been true of any project - the very act of making a projected OS is an opinion of the maintainers and community by a project. Of course the project and maintainers can be more or less opinionated and promote specific views. In this case you and the Opal twitter account saying it's not representative is just that.
I think it's good that you and the Opal twitter account have said that. Honestly... it should end there. But unfortunately I think you dealt with the initial post poorly and dismissively and so it's exploded.
It's going to be dragged into the dirt by trolls like the lovely Lol acct there too.
Yeah, the trolls have been linked here. I don't think that is @meh's fault and they aren't really supporting him so much as inserting their crap into the conversation like they love to do.
@meh when you have someone named @LolNiggers defending you it's probably time to stop and reevaluate.
It's not my fault the trolls come, and since it's a fake account it might very well be someone who isn't actually defending me, you know, fake account, trolls, stir up the flame, usual internet discussion involution.
@emilyrose Did you ever use contact ANY contributor of Opal? If not, you don't have the right to warn anyone of anything.
Yes, I have! Thanks for your completely objective concern, though! 
Opal has no opinions since it's a project.
@meh, honestly… Repeatedly parroting your thought that this issue is "irrelevant" because Opal is a technology isn't helping. I think it's admirable that you continue to respond to people here. I think that your willingness to accept a Code of Conduct as proposed in #942 is admirable. But you should stop trying to separate your technologies from your people. That separation has never existed. Yes, software is evaluated by machines. But it's written by and contributed to by and read by people. Yes, machines don't care what your contributors say on Twitter. But your other contributors and potential future contributors do care. You're just brushing that aside in a misguided and, in all likelihood, extremely futile attempt to separate code from people.
@emilyrose so did you experience any oppression while contacting said contributor?
If you came here to argue that @elia has opinions that exclude others and should therefor be excluded in actual fact, try thinking a little harder. We're doing ourselves a disservice these days by being a demographic that works to turn hypothetical bigotry real.
@shenanigans - I think the discussion has moved beyond that by now. Aside from the trolls with 0-day accounts anyhow...
^^^ I rest my case.
^ In case that's confusing to anybody out of the loop, that comment (and others) were in reference to a troll account that's been removed. Thankfully.
@abritinthebay that's a sweeping generalisation, one person in a conversation involving this many is a minority, you shouldn't judge the actions of the many by the actions of the few.
What's a sweeping generalization? That the conversation had moved beyond hateful browbeating of each "side" and moved on to actual discussion? Aside from trolls that is?
Are you suggesting you'd like to go back to the crap-slinging further up in this thread?
I thought you were suggesting the contrary
My bad
Oh god no. I have nothing against the Opal team or project other than how this issue was initially handled by @meh - and I think if the CoC stuff goes through then I'll feel comfortable recommending the project again.
Honestly I think most productive discussion should move to #942 about the code of conduct. Hopefully the trolls will be stamped out (because they'll show up there too)
“I wasn't aware issue trackers were for people.”
This, alone, is everything that's wrong with open source, today.
Have any of you read the tweets in question? The meaning seems pretty ambiguous. It looks like it might be case of misunderstanding, poor phrasing, or ignorance. I would have thought the rational thing (Other than leaving personal communications on an unrelated social platform completely out of this project, which would be my preference) to do would be to allow @elia the opportunity to respond to these allegations before starting a internet wide campaign to have him not only removed from the project, but also harassed on social media, and to potentially have his career impacted.
In all seriousness now, why can't we all separate politics and our different worldviews from the common goal that Opal's developers share?
Because code is for people.
Do we really have to introduce thought policing on a source code management website?
We're not talking about thought policing. People can think whatever they want. But they shouldn't share beliefs in harmful ways and drive contributors away.
Think about it a little.
We have.
Incidentally the topic of reassignment surgery on children is a lot more nuanced than, and it's discussion very far removed from: "This guy doesn't believe trans people are human" which is what I've seen people in this thread summarize his opinions as.
@pay-denbts
why can't we all separate politics and our different worldviews from the common goal that Opal's developers share?
Programmers are people. Contributors are people. You cant' remove the people equation from a project.
Do we really have to introduce thought policing on a source code management website?
I agree the original poster was a bit.. er.. ham-handed and over-reacted. I think clarification from the Opal team was all the was needed. Calling for immediate ousting was over the top (and overly dramatic).
However calling for consideration as a community on how a project's contributors can affect each other and the projects users... is not thought policing so much as paying attention. This is why I strongly support the Code Of Conduct initiative.
Think about it a little.
I have, a lot, as have many others. I'd strongly urge you to do the same.
@davidcelis I agree. The first line of the Code of Conduct should read:
- In case you're an asshole – don't tell anybody. Or better yet, contribute anonymously.
Oh god no. I have nothing against the Opal team or project other than how this issue was initially handled by @meh
If the title would have been different, @CoralineAda would have gotten a polite answer, I merely replied in tone.
Well, to be fair, I don't think anyone bothered to stop to ask @elia to whom he was referring when he made the statement.
"@AstonJ @krainboltgreene that happens also after the reassignm. (not talking just about dr. Money) not accepting reality is the problem here" is pretty vague, is he referring to transgender people? The people who refuse to accept the reality that transgender people exist, and won't allow their kids to be taught about it at school? Who knows?
Judging from the tweet that the subject of this issue is in response to, I'd say he probably doesn't hold any discriminatory opinions: https://twitter.com/elia/status/611300709217226754
I think that this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion from the beginning, as seems to generally be the case with these kinds of things, and #941 (comment) hits the nail on the head
Programmers are people. Contributors are people. You cant' remove the people equation from a project.
We sure can try ;)
If the title would have been different, @CoralineAda would have gotten a polite answer, I merely replied in tone.
so to summarize, if @CoralineAda had said "ouch" in a more polite tone, you wouldn't have been so dismissive of this input?
If the title would have been different, @CoralineAda would have gotten a polite answer, I merely replied in tone.
Fair, but as a maintainer of the community I think you have to hold yourself to a higher standard than "well she started it". I get it though - I've been in that situation: it's frustrating and very easy to be overly short and glib with responses.
@ipsumx I'd go as far to say as that is actually impossible while code is written and used by people.
@AMHOL Thanks for pulling me in here, but no amount of context changes this from being a personal opinion that trans people are insane.
Coupled with his belief that the Italian Government going to force 4 year olds to touch each other's privates and perform reassignment surgery on young children without their parent's consent, I can't see how anyone could trust him to say anything reasonable.
Of course this entire conversation we're having is a follow up to him linking to a pro-"transracial" article.
@krainboltgreene why don't you ask him?
@abritinthebay It's not possible or even desirable. We write code, ultimately, even if indirectly, to help people. Considering the effects on other people of anything our projects or their members do is a requirement to produce something useful. We are in a messy but hopefully beneficial part of discovering those effects right here. :)
@orangejulius oh I agree completely. Just commenting on the feasibility aspect ;)
@AMHOL ...I did? I was in that conversation that everyone seems to be skimming.
Just want to express undying support for the people actually getting stuff done, as opposed to the people who only seem happy when they tear other human beings down.
To everyone trying to throw their weight around in this space: when you're done failing to inject your politics into hacker culture, why don't you go back to failing to inject them into gaming culture?
wow, this is so stupid. if i would own this project, i would close this issue even without saying anything
Hey @meh, at least you have Gamergate supporting your robotic view of the world.
@krainboltgreene you didn't ask him, you closed down the conversation the second he said anything you could (mis?)conceive as being offensive.
@krainboltgreene as much as the GG/TiA/KiA/RedPill loons are.. well.. toxic lunatics. Lets not lump @meh in with them. They are just using this as a soapbox for their stuff.
you know - like they always do. They love inserting themselves.
What's wrong with toxic lunatics having their pull requests accepted if their code is good?
@abritinthebay I wonder why.
What's wrong with toxic lunatics having their pull requests accepted if their code is good?
Writing good code is easier than eliminating the side effects of being surrounded by toxic lunatics.
Edit:
To elaborate, it may often be worth the cost to rewrite their contribution rather than to accept the costs of association.
Not trying to imply that this is the case here, actually, just addressing the direct question.
so to summarize, if @CoralineAda had said "ouch" in a more polite tone, you wouldn't have been so dismissive of this input?
No. It would have been dismissed, but politely.
@ipsumx in general? Nothing. As maintainers of a project though - it gets more complicated.
Why is this still being discussed?
The opinions of a developer, no matter how toxic they may be, are irrelevant to the project unless they bring them up and make them influence their work on the project, or the developer in question starts attacking people who work on or use this project, especially under their identity used to develop for this project. Their personal opinion doesn't matter in any way, shape, or form until that happens.
Oh look. More unproductive 0-day accounts with nothing to say except insult people. Yeesh. The M.O. is far too predictable.
Love the ad-hominems. Code has no ideology, I know that must infuriate you.
Code has no ideology
If you believe this then I have a bridge to sell you...
with nothing to say except insult people
Try for substance if you'd like to have an adult conversation. No one's buying what you're selling, if you haven't noticed.
@abritinthebay Tell me again how this doesn't fit in with the Gamergate narrative?
@krainboltgreene I don't think I ever said it didn't?
I just meant lets not lump @meh in with those fools when he's already said the original comments weren't representative of the project and is open to a CoC. That's what I was objecting to.
People like the two trolls above are obviously in the mold you mention (if not GG, then similar hate-driven reactionary groups, they all have the same predictable m.o.)
@vgf89 I totally get the rationale behind your argument, and wish it worked like that. Ideally we could just accept good code and call it a day, but I don't think it's that simple. Many many people in this thread have already chimed in saying they aren't comfortable contributing to opal just because of the opinions of one of the maintainers. Some of them are already incredible developers. Some of them are just starting. Some of them don't even write code. But when you sum the potential for their contributions, it's way bigger than any one person.
And this doesn't stop with opal. Think of all the people who had the potential to contribute to OSS (or even become devs at a closed source shop and do useful work), but saw the developer community that reacts with hostility to their mere existence, and then went somewhere else. Usually we don't even hear their voices because they don't even get that far into our communities. A few of them like @CoralineAda have the energy and guts to speak up, but most don't. The biggest thing we can do to help is listen and consider what people not like us have to say.
@krainboltgreene I tried to look up what all this drama is about on Twitter, but 60% of what I see is you alleging someone else said various things and not providing sources for your claims. A few times you even had to correct yourself after they asked about it. The rest is either very ambiguous due to Twitter-brevity or in Italian, and sometimes there's obviously missing context that tweets were in reply to but was deleted.
To me it really looks like you're trying to smear someone as hard as possible because they don't happen to agree with you on an issue that is far more complicated than anything that is alleged here.
(Incidentally you have me blocked on Twitter without us ever interacting. Normally I would consider this unrelated, but since you've already brought up the topic I'll say this: You seem far too eager to dismiss anything another person does based on political ideology. It's really appalling to see this kind of mud-slinging, both in this case and that one.)
Transphobic maintainer should be removed from project
If you want him removed, start working on Opal and contributing as much as him to everything he did for Opal so we have a replacement that's more in orientation with your morals and views.
That's just the title and the first response btw. Let's meditate a bit on this one, and continue with our lives.
There are plenty of Gay, Transgender or whatever people in the OSS community that are pretty descent on what they do, and guess what everyone respects their opinion if it's right. How strange.
Also, in case someone missed a history class and don't know about the culture that we're building on http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#believe5
To be a hacker, you have to develop some of these attitudes. But copping an attitude alone won't make you a hacker, any more than it will make you a champion athlete or a rock star. Becoming a hacker will take intelligence, practice, dedication, and hard work.
Therefore, you have to learn to distrust attitude and respect competence of every kind. Hackers won't let posers waste their time, but they worship competence — especially competence at hacking, but competence at anything is valued. Competence at demanding skills that few can master is especially good, and competence at demanding skills that involve mental acuteness, craft, and concentration is best.
If you revere competence, you'll enjoy developing it in yourself — the hard work and dedication will become a kind of intense play rather than drudgery. That attitude is vital to becoming a hacker.
Wow that escalated quickly.
I also suggest closing the issue as it has nothing to do with Opal; we were having a private discussion that just happens to be on a public platform. As it happens I think Kurtis and I were doing a great job of helping (and I mean helping the cause) something the drama in this thread is not doing a good job of at all.
For the record, I took his comments in that tweet as two separate points and feel this has been blown out of proportion.
Remove this nonsense already, arguing with these people is pissing into the wind.
Think of all the people who had the potential to contribute to OSS (or even become devs at a closed source shop and do useful work), but saw the developer community that reacts with hostility to their mere existence, and then went somewhere else.
I wanna build on top of this. The common narrative is, roughly 'If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen', and there's an elegance to that. However, it sits on top of a perception that FOSS does not need more people. Opal may not need more people; don't know, don't care enough to scroll up and check the open issue count. However, as a whole, FOSS definitely could use more motivated, interested bodies. This is especially true WRT adding things like accessibility options for webapps, or refining UIs. When you select for people compatible with working around assholes, you create large blind spots, and because of the nature of blind spots, you can't even see that they are present until your shit starts falling over or becomes disused. Good projects die because of the perception that the human element is irrelevant.
Also, it's no wonder that ESR wants OSS to be a sociopath friendly zone if you've ever read his blog...
This discussion is even more interesting considering that @meh has repositories named fag and ruby-clit. Just sayin'.
it sits on top of a perception that FOSS does not need more people
No, it sits on a perception that we don't need more people who care more about political correctness than contribution.
Why does everyone think this is some new idea they are delivering to the unwashed hackers? Open source is completely predicated on cooperation, acceptance, and diversity. You literally don't even have this system to make comments without it. No one is swallowing the poison pill being sold here except the people selling it. That's your right as an Anglo (as I'm sure most of you cultural colonialists are, as per usual)
This beyond insanity at this point. You people want to live in a world where everyone shares your opinion and if anyone expresses a differing opinion you want to hunt them down and stop them from contributing to FOSS projects, projects you're not even involved with; and you're so zealous in your bigotry you cannot see that you are the aggressor in this situation. You cannot see that a world where people cannot express opinions you find distasteful is not a utopian paradise but a prison that will trap us all. Someone's beliefs have nothing to do with code. These are fundamental differences between our worldviews. If you cannot accept that worldview work a different project that applies your principles there a lot of them starting up I hear.
You wound me, Anal Dash. I am felled by your wit.
No, it sits on a perception that we don't need more people who care more about political correctness than contribution.
You haven't the foggiest what anyone's priorities are, nor what you lose by excluding them. Drop the myopia, it's a bad look.
@CoralineAda You're on the warpath now, aren't you?
Honestly, meh, I think you should just quickly have said "Closed as it is not a contribution nor relevant to the project." and locked the thread. These people are clearly more interested in discussing OT subjects than your project.
There are plenty of other places to discuss unrelated things if that's what you wish, all I know is that this is not the place.
I'd have zero problem using good code from a sociopath, such as a person who wishes to banish a contributor who feels that transsexuality is a disorder. Welcome, totalitarians!
You haven't the foggiest
You're right, I don't.
So, you're saying that you value contribution over political correctness? If so, how is this topic in existence? You are either being intellectually dishonest, or you have some insight into something I haven't considered.
Please, explain to all of us how starting a witch hunt on a developer over their personal remarks on Twitter is indicative of valuing contribution over political correctness.
So, you're saying that you value contribution over **political correctness? If so, how is this topic in existence? You are either being intellectually dishonest, or you have some insight into something I haven't considered.
I'm not the one being excluded (in this case). My valuse aren't really a factor. That said, I value good organizational principles over either of those things.
Please, explain to all of us how starting a witch hunt on a developer over their personal remarks on Twitter is indicative of valuing contribution over political correctness?
It's not. Witch hunt is exaggeratory, and starting this thread indicates exactly one thing: That @CoralineAda saw a problem she saw fit to bring up with the maintainers. It is neither indicative of her priorities, nor those of the people talking.
Know what's important to me? My kids. Good weather. My bike. Fresh air. Code quality ranks somewhere around "Having spare toilet paper" and "Mangoes for breakfast instead of cereal". It's a nice to have.
However, having a good OSS community is more important to me that what I might have otherwise done with spare moments today.
Ouch. Good one.
Crying for the removal of any one person from any position due to disagreements of opinion that took place in an outside venue is exactly a witch hunt.
Crying for the removal of any one person from any position due to disagreements of opinion that took place in an outside venue is exactly a witch hunt.
Actually, during witch hunts, real men burned real women on real stakes until they died. By comparison, this was a request that a person no longer have access to a particular collection of bits.
You're right, though, the SJWs are definitely the ridiculous ones here, asking for respect and stuff. How dare we.
![https://upload.wikimedia.org/--[remove_this]--wikipedia/en/7/78/ThomasShippAbramSmith.jpg](https://upload.wikimedia.org/--%5Bremove_this%5D--wikipedia/en/7/78/ThomasShippAbramSmith.jpg){kind=link}
Edit:
I think my previous comment above was being misinterpreted to my intent, so hopefully here is some clarity. I agree we do need a code of conduct, and #942 is a productive chat on this, and I will repeat what I said in that thread: No contributors code is more important than the community at large. Project owners, maintainers and core contributors represent the ethics of a project. They are given those titles for good reason - to represent the project.
For anyone looking to expand on this topic in a constructive manner: #942.
I have locked this issue not to stop the conversation, but to direct it to somewhere more appropriate.
Over the last few days, a number of people in this conversation have taken the issue in hand and shown that discrimination against other individuals in our industry is, quite frankly, alarming. The tech/development/computer industry has a long and troubled history of discrimination against various groups of individuals which, judging by some of the comments in this and other threads, shows no sign of improving anytime soon.
To the people who contributed comments and messages looking to improve our community: thank you.
This whole matter could have been sorted in a peaceful manner; instead the problems in our community are not just present inside Opal, they are still present within the whole developer community.
I encourage every individual who has taken part in this conversation to review our recently committed Code of Conduct. That is the standard this project will be run against, however I am open to making further improvements.
Please help continue this discussion at http://metaruby.com/c/ruby-forum/community-issues
Thank you,
Adam.
Elia Schito is publicly calling trans people out for "not accepting reality" on Twitter. His Twitter profile mentions that he is a core contributor to opal. Is this what the other maintainers want to be reflected in the project? Will any transgender developers feel comfortable contributing?
https://twitter.com/krainboltgreene/status/611569515315507200