Transphobic maintainer should be removed from project

[CoralineAda]

Elia Schito is publicly calling trans people out for "not accepting reality" on Twitter. His Twitter profile mentions that he is a core contributor to opal. Is this what the other maintainers want to be reflected in the project? Will any transgender developers feel comfortable contributing?

https://twitter.com/krainboltgreene/status/611569515315507200

[meh]

If you want him removed, start working on Opal and contributing as much as him to everything he did for Opal so we have a replacement that's more in orientation with your morals and views.

Protip: you won't because you can't.

[meh]

Also to elaborate more on that, Opal is a technology, technology is moral-less, if a transgender contributor appeared @elia's views wouldn't even appear in here, because why would anyone care, bring contributions, they will be accepted with open arms, bring morals and politics in here, and you will be shown the metaphorical door.

[strand]

As a queer person this sort of argument from a maintainer makes me feel unwelcome. The ignorance which @elia shows by claiming that transfolk are "not accepting reality" is actively harmful.

I will not contribute to this project or any other project which @elia maintains.

[meh]

@elia is free to have his opinions, in the case he'll bring his views against anyone contributing based on any of their mental or physical attributes, then it would be reason to tell him not to do that.

As you @strand, are free to not contribute to Opal, feel free to use any other Ruby to JavaScript technology.

[skade]

The opal team, though, is not a technology. Contributing to a software project also means contributing to the works of others, requiring mutual respect.

Requesting contributions before being heard is a pretty low stab as well - you are basically saying that opinions gain worth with merit.

[jaredcwhite]

The personal views of a maintainer, as long as they are not influencing in a discriminatory way the contributions accepted in a project, should be off-limits for discussion IMHO. It pains me to see this even be an issue here. Thanks @meh for stating what should be obvious.

[aredridel]

Damn. I found out about this project thanks to this issue, and it's super relevant to my interests. But not going to come near it with a thousand foot pole if these are the people I'd have to interact with.

[CoralineAda]

To @meh and others who think that OSS is a moral-free zone: https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-dehumanizing-myth-of-the-meritocracy

Pro tip: you won't read it because you don't care.

[tobascodagama]

The opal team, though, is not a technology. Contributing to a software project also means contributing to the works of others, requiring mutual respect.

Bingo. If developers can't trust the Opal team to treat them with respect, why would they want to use and contribute to Opal?

Is the Opal team really willing to value a single contributor now over hundreds of users and contributers in the future? Seems pretty short-sighted to me.

[meh]

@skade @elia is not telling anyone to not contribute to Opal because of their mental or physical attributes, and there isn't any unwelcoming to anyone contributing, he's free to say anything he wants, like you are, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the project.

And requesting someone to be removed because of their views without even knowing what their work is, is as much of a low stab.

[fivetanley]

Protip: you won't because you can't.

Being this dismissive of someone is not really a great way to run an OSS project. You will lose out as people feel less welcome.

Also Coraline has been in the industry for many years, and is one of the most seasoned developers I know. This was not a fair stab.

[meh]

@aredridel as long as you interact with the people about the technology, you will be welcome and treated with respect.

When you bring something completely unrelated, then you aren't, as simple as that. It's like I started talking about candy in here, it is not the place.

[sellout]

“The personal views of a maintainer, as long as they are not influencing in a discriminatory way the contributions accepted in a project” – the personal views of the maintainer influence even the contributions submitted to a project (including both patches and involvement in the community). They won’t be accepted because you never even get to see them.

“not telling anyone to not contribute to Opal” – no, but he’s dissuading them from participating just by espousing these biases.

[aredridel]

Exactly: as long as I interact solely about the technology, and who I am is never mentioned, I'm welcome to participate and be respected. This is second class participation, and this is not respect.

[meh]

@CoralineAda I won't read it because it is not relevant to the project.

If you want to tell people to not come near Opal because one of the people working on it doesn't like what you like, then feel free to, nobody is forcing anyone to use or not use Opal.

[meh]

@aredridel you don't mention who you are because it doesn't matter, at all.

Why would you bring it up when asking questions or discussing something related to Opal? It's completely irrelevant.

[Ajedi32]

You want an active contributer removed from the project because of his political views? Seriously? And you're calling him discriminatory? Sigh.

[jaredcwhite]

I really can't imagine myself not wanting to contribute to an OSS project until I have vetted the personal views on a variety of issues of every single maintainer. This is madness, and frankly it's very hard for me to believe that's actually what some of you are saying...

[aredridel]

It's not the views: it's how he interacts with others. Views held close are hard to care about. Views taken out in public, about people in that public? That requires care and consideration.

[meh]

@fivetanley because wanting a core contributor out because he doesn't like candy and you do is not dismissive?

I don't care how long @CoralineAda has been in the industry, this is irrelevant to the project.

[meh]

@aredridel if he doesn't interact that way with people when talking about project related things, then it's not an issue for Opal.

[CoralineAda]

Likening transphobia to a penchant for candy is offensive and belies a deeper ignorance. I guess this extends beyond @elia.

[meh]

@CoralineAda in this particular situation, it is the exact same thing, you don't know anything about my views or who and what I am, and you never will, because it's irrelevant to technology.

[sipple]

@meh This is not about "what [someone] likes". It's about who a person is. That you think this is the same thing is why there's a problem, and why people are saying they don't feel safe in your community.

[aredridel]

@meh many of your views are easy to discern from your comments here.

All I'm saying: the reaction to this thread is a reason why I'd go from 'Oh, this software is cool' to "nope, not in a million years". It's that I've got the energy to spare that I'm willing to speak up and say something.

[fivetanley]

because wanting a core contributor out because he doesn't like candy and you do is not dismissive?

No, I'm saying you not even browsing Coraline's github to measure "merit" is dismissive; her work and expertise in ruby obviously speaks for itself.

Also comparing people to candy is really dehumanizing and makes me really sad. As someone who often works on JS transforms I had been interested in opal for a while, but now I won't contribute. The way you treat Coraline by not at least listening and asking questions, and also the way you are talking to me, tells me everything about the way you run the project.

Farewell. I'm sure others will be able to expound their views more clearly.

[meh]

@sipple who and what a person is, is irrelevant to the project, as long as those things aren't brought up in the project itself, and they shouldn't be, because there's no need to.

[meh]

@aredridel you're welcome to use any other Ruby to JavaScript technologies, nobody is forcing you to use Opal or contribute to it.

If it works for you, use it, if it doesn't, don't.

[meh]

@aredridel also I assure you, trying to deduce my views on these comments will lead you nowhere true.

[meh]

@fivetanley because I'm sure @CoralineAda checked all @elia has done for Opal before coming here and wanting him out because they don't agree on things that have nothing to do with Opal itself.

If you want to see how the project is ran, check issues and discussions that were actually relevant to the project.

But as @CoralineAda said, you won't because you don't care.

[aredridel]

No, I won't because of how THIS issue is being treated.

[meh]

@aredridel and you're free to think and do what you think is best, godspeed.

[bhaibel]

@meh You've said that you're committed to creating a welcoming environment for new contributors. Saying that is easy. Doing that is hard. You're failing at it: right now, as a queer woman, I do not believe Opal would treat any contributions I might make fairly. I do not believe that I would be welcomed onto the project.

[meh]

@bhaibel why do you even have to say who and what you are? It's irrelevant to any contribution, or question, or request for help, or discussion.

Want to talk about the technology? You're welcome to and you will be treated with respect.

Want to talk about what you're going to do on the weekend? This is not the place.

[erisdev]

because wanting a core contributor out because he doesn't like candy and you do is not dismissive?

@meh jesus christ. this isn't about "not liking candy", you fucking muppet, it's about making public statements against a class of people based on a core part of who they are. this is not. the same. fucking. thing.

if someone has openly expressed hostility toward me or people like me in one context, of course I'm not going to be fucking comfortable interacting with them in another context.

[andrewmcwatters]

@erisdev Stay civil. People are reading this.

[jdax]

You cannot separate people from the technology they create or the technology they use. Ever. It's not possible. I cannot work with people if they bring to the table with them the idea that I, as a human, am wrong about who I fundamentally am at my core. This isn't about someone's "political" views - it's about him not seeing some people as even being human

[aredridel]

this is not respect right now, so it's obvious that we will not be treated with respect.

[meh]

@erisdev in this context, it is the same thing, why? Because it's as irrelevant.

If we were talking about these issues onto themselves, I agree with you.

[erisdev]

@meh it is absolutely not. read the edit to my other comment.

[meh]

@jdax you can, if they don't bring those views when working together on the project. And why would they? It's irrelevant to the project.

Sometimes people don't like eachother, that's normal, you can't demand to like everyone you work with, that doesn't mean you can't work with them and then both of you go out with your own friends.

[hnrysmth]

This issue is a case study in how the open source community systematically protects abusers and excludes LGBT developers. A white cisgender man can publicly claim that transgender people are delusional and suffer zero consequences in the open source community.

What do you think an LGBT developer thinks when they see this? Do they see a safe, welcoming environment where their identities and well-being will be respected and protected? Or a callous, self-serving machine that ruthlessly prioritises short-term technical goals over all else?

You can't divorce your choices from their sociopolitical context just because it's convenient for getting a bunch of code shipped. If you're choosing to collaborate with somebody despite knowing about their prejudice against the LGBT community, then that's a choice you're consciously making. It's a choice that reveals a personal belief system which prioritises code over people.

Maybe you're fine with that, but a growing number of us in the wider community of developers are not. I'm not attempting to change your mind. I just want to add my voice to those stating "this is not okay by me either". As much as I hate to spam your project's issue with a non-technical comment, I hate the idea of being complicit in my silence even more.

[meh]

@erisdev being unable to work with people you don't like when the interactions are strictly professional, is entirely your problem.

[meh]

@aredridel because wanting a core contributor thrown out because of who they are is respectful?

[aredridel]

So very well said, @hnrysmth

[juanplopes]

@hnrysmth 👍

[erisdev]

@meh calling me delusional isn't exactly professional, buddy ol' pal.

[andrewmcwatters]

I see a bunch of LGBT people talking about everything else besides code in this issue. I wasn't aware issue trackers were for people.

[aredridel]

@meh I'd rather censure, really. But you're confusing who someone is with their actions.

[nslater]

OSS projects are, at their core, about people. People who choose to come together to donate their time and attention to collaborate on a shared problem. Good technology is a side-effect of good people, well cared for. If you think you can produce technology without caring about people, you either misunderstand tech, or you are happy to limit your pool of contributors to people with a lot of privilege and a thick skin, i.e. the usual suspects: aggressive young white men.

[meh]

@erisdev I haven't said you were delusional.

[aredridel]

We'll get to talking code if this is shown to be a place that's respectful. Turns out ... people shit on us all the time.

[erisdev]

@andrewmcwatters I see a dude posting passive aggressive complaints about the topic and not adding anything to the conversation.

@meh I literally did not say you said it. it was the other guy, the guy this whole issue was about in the first place.

[jdax]

And what happens when I start commiting and someone who doesn't view LGBT people as human starts making commit messages that might look like funny in-jokes but use slurs? Or uses those slurs in issue trackers? Or the IRC channel? It's not my problem if I can't work with someone who doesn't think I'm even a human being. It's the problem of the person who thinks some people are more worthy of respect than others.

[myfreeweb]

@hnrysmth +1

[andrewmcwatters]

@nslater, @erisdev Passive aggressive? I generally think about code when I think about OSS projects, not politics. It doesn't help to speak unprofessionally to others when you want to make a point.

[copumpkin]

@meh if your key contributor spends his free time burning crosses in black people's back yards, would you consider that "political views"? "Leave him alone, he doesn't openly discriminate against black people in his code" feels pretty hollow.

Obviously not the same thing, but I draw the parallel because these aren't "I think the tax policy is stupid" type politics. The sort of views you're writing off as "politics" are views that actively discriminate against entire groups of people. Those people, oddly enough, don't want to work with or interact with said developer, and by extension, your project.

[aredridel]

@andrewmcwatters That, right there, is a political statement.

[nslater]

@andrewmcwatters when I think about OSS, I think of community management, emotional labour, and risks to my mental health. That you don't is a product of your privilege.

[meh]

This issue is a case study in how the open source community systematically protects abusers and excludes LGBT developers.

Nobody is being excluded in any way.

A white cisgender man can publicly claim that transgender people are delusional and suffer zero consequences in the open source community.

He can, because he has freedom of speech, he didn't write it anywhere in the project.

He's free to say that, and you're free to say that's not acceptable, that doesn't have anything to do with Opal.

What do you think an LGBT developer thinks when they see this? Do they see a safe, welcoming environment where their identities and well-being will be respected and protected? Or a callous, self-serving machine that ruthlessly prioritises short-term technical goals over all else?

What they see is their problem, if they cannot or do not want to work on a project when nobody is being excluded or ignored because of it, then, again, it's their problem.

If @elia had done that in an issue, on gitter, on the mailing list, on IRC, on StackOverflow, then I agree, that IS a problem and it should be fixed.

But that's not the case, he said that on HIS Twitter, stating HIS opinion, like you're stating YOURS.

You can't divorce your choices from their sociopolitical context just because it's convenient for getting a bunch of code shipped. If you're choosing to collaborate with somebody despite knowing about their prejudice against the LGBT community, then that's a choice you're consciously making. It's a choice that reveals a personal belief system which prioritises code over people.

Yes, it's a choice, you're free to not work with those people, it's YOUR choice.

Maybe you're fine with that, but a growing number of us in the wider community of developers are not. I'm not attempting to change your mind. I just want to add my voice to those stating "this is not okay by me either". As much as I hate to spam your project's issue with a non-technical comment, I hate the idea of being complicit in my silence even more.

It's not a problem of a project that someone has differing ideas, everyone has their own and they should learn to work together.

And how do they do that? Not by agreeing, but by knowing what is relevant and what is not.

[ffrank]

@nslater nailed it.

[jalcine]

Pretty sure that people write code, people review code and people release code. If said people are discriminatory towards contributors, there's absolutely no reason for the project to even bother being open if they can't shed bigoted views of the world to accept what would be a potential new long-time contributor to a project.

As others as mentioned, I'll personally blacklist all of the maintainer's projects.

SIDE-NOTE: Freedom of speech != hate speech. Just because you can say it doesn't mean it has to be tolerated.

[erisdev]

btw folks get sacked all the fucking time from public-facing jobs (which being an OSS developer absolutely is! you interact with your users whenever they file bug reports or contribute to your project) for expressing hateful views like this.

[aredridel]

Nobody is being excluded in any way.

This thread and how it is being handled pretty much means it'll be my only interaction with this project. That's exclusion, in practice if not rules.

[meh]

OSS projects are, at their core, about people.

No, they're MADE by people, OSS projects are, at their core, projects.

People who choose to come together to donate their time and attention to collaborate on a shared problem.

Because they need it, they have no reason to show any prejudice when working together, why? Because it's irrelevant.

Good technology is a side-effect of good people, well organised. If you think you can produce technology without caring about people, you either misunderstand tech, or you are happy to limit your contributors to people with a lot of privilege and a thick skin, i.e. the usual suspects: aggressive young white men.

People do what they can do, and do not what they cannot, that's obvious.

[erisdev]

@aredridel yep. classic "I don't see a problem so you must be making it up".

[lutoma]

It's really quite telltale how every single post here discarding this as a non-issue so far was from white, presumably straight and cis dudes. Of course it's a non-issue for you. For others, not so much.

[aredridel]

It's not a problem of a project that someone has differing ideas, everyone has their own and they should learn to work together.

There are things you can work together over, like "I think we should use tabs" and things you can't like "I'm going to defend slurs in commit messages, or state that this project is apolitical in a way that entrenches the existing contributors and their views"

[meh]

@erisdev ah okay, my bad, now I understand what you meant, yes, it would have been unprofessional if he said that while working on the project, but he did not.

[hnrysmth]

Thank you for not trying to argue around the central theme of my comment, which is that you're a lousy person if you'll work with somebody like that just to get your damn code shipped.

[copumpkin]

@meh hypothetical/hyperbolic question: would you work with a child molester if he produced good code?

[meh]

And what happens when I start commiting and someone who doesn't view LGBT people as human starts making commit messages that might look like funny in-jokes but use slurs? Or uses those slurs in issue trackers? Or the IRC channel? It's not my problem if I can't work with someone who doesn't think I'm even a human being. It's the problem of the person who thinks some people are more worthy of respect than others.

Yes, if that is what happens, I agree, that's a problem and it must be fixed, as I already said.

But that's not what happened.

[meh]

We'll get to talking code if this is shown to be a place that's respectful. Turns out ... people shit on us all the time.

How can it be shown as such if the situation doesn't arise?

[juanplopes]

@nslater 👍 👍 👍

Btw, half of this discussion wouldn't happen without the very harsh and personal answer @meh wrote when closing the issue. That answer expresses exactly what are his opinions about (the lack of) tech diversity. If this doesn't prove how individuals opinions are pervasive in OSS culture (not only tech), I don't know what does.

[meh]

Pretty sure that people write code, people review code and people release code. If said people are discriminatory towards contributors, there's absolutely no reason for the project to even bother being open if they can't shed bigoted views of the world to accept what would be a potential new long-time contributor to a project.

I agree with that, if such a situation arose, it would be a problem, but it hasn't arisen.

As others as mentioned, I'll personally blacklist all of the maintainer's projects.

And you are free to do that.

SIDE-NOTE: Freedom of speech != hate speech. Just because you can say it doesn't mean it has to be tolerated.

I disagree, it's either total freedom of speech, or it's not freedom. Partial freedom is not freedom.

[meh]

btw folks get sacked all the fucking time from public-facing jobs (which being an OSS developer absolutely is! you interact with your users whenever they file bug reports or contribute to your project) for expressing hateful views like this.

And the company employing them has the right to do so.

[jdax]

Freedom of speech != freedom from consequences. And if you say "trans people aren't human" you're gonna face some consequences. And right now you're consequences are people do not feel safe contributing to this project or using it!

[andrewmcwatters]

Sounds like their problem when no one is stopping them.

[meh]

@meh if your key contributor spends his free time burning crosses in black people's back yards, would you consider that "political views"? "Leave him alone, he doesn't openly discriminate against black people in his code" feels pretty hollow.

Yes, what he does in his free time is completely irrelevant.

Obviously not the same thing, but I draw the parallel because these aren't "I think the tax policy is stupid" type politics. The sort of views you're writing off as "politics" are views that actively discriminate against entire groups of people. Those people, oddly enough, don't want to work with or interact with said developer, and by extension, your project.

And they are free to do so. Want to use the technology? Use it. Do not want to? Don't.

[meh]

@meh hypothetical/hyperbolic question: would you work with a child molester if he produced good code?

Yes.

[andrewmcwatters]

@meh 👍 Well said. Keep these things separate.

[aredridel]

Yes, what he does in his free time is completely irrelevant.

And yet it leads right back to here. "who is this guy?" "an opal developer. Says in his profile." He is representing this project.

[meh]

Thank you for not trying to argue around the central theme of my comment, which is that you're a lousy person if you'll work with somebody like that just to get your damn code shipped.

And you're free to hold that opinion.

[meh]

Freedom of speech != freedom from consequences. And if you say "trans people aren't human" you're gonna face some consequences. And right now you're consequences are people do not feel safe contributing to this project or using it!

If they cannot separate things, it's entirely their problem. They're free to disagree with @elia as @elia is free to disagree with them, that doesn't mean it will affect the interactions related to Opal.

[meh]

Btw, half of this discussion wouldn't happen without the very harsh and personal answer @meh wrote when closing the issue. That answer express exactly what are his opinions about (the lack of) tech diversity. If this doesn't prove how individuals opinions are pervasive in OSS culture (not only tech), I don't know what does.

The issue was on the issue tracker of Opal, and the issue wasn't related to Opal, it was related to differing opinions of @CoralineAda and @elia, on words said outside of Opal.

[meh]

And yet it leads right back to here. "who is this guy?" "an opal developer. Says in his profile." He is representing this project.

He is not representing anyone but himself. If you let what and who is affect your decision on using something he works on, it would be the same as he having his decisions affected on what and who anyone else is, which is the core of the issue at hand.

[ghost]

@meh jesus christ. this isn't about "not liking candy", you fucking muppet

I find @erisdev's taking the Lord's name in vain and using profanity to be deeply insulting to my religious beliefs.

I will not use any project that @erisdev contributes to.

[andrewmcwatters]

@jedstraw 👍 There's more than one side to this story. If you want to encourage a friendly development ecosystem, you need to start with yourself.

[erisdev]

@jedstraw @andrewmcwatters good, I don't want you using my software. do you think this is some kind of joke?

[meh]

It's really quite telltale how every single post here discarding this as a non-issue so far was from white, presumably straight and cis dudes. Of course it's a non-issue for you. For others, not so much.

As I said, you don't know, and never will know, who and what I am, because it's irrelevant.

[andrewmcwatters]

@erisdev No, we don't. But you just publicly discriminated against us for our religious beliefs. Do you see the disconnect here?

[andrewmcwatters]

@meh Exactly.

[ghost]

@erisdev Not joking at all. The fact that you think I'm joking is just a sign that you have zero empathy for people that share my belief.

[aredridel]

@jedstraw is a newly registered account to sockpuppet this issue.

[juanplopes]

The issue was on the issue tracker of Opal, and the issue wasn't related to Opal, it was related to differing opinions of @CoralineAda and @elia, on words said outside of Opal.

What basis did you have to say @CoralineAda couldn't contribute if she wanted to, other than your own prejudice against people advocating social justice? That contradicts the core of your argument. Opinions do matter in an OSS project. Unless you're ok with only receiving contribution from straight white dudes. Or not even that, speaking for myself.

[ghost]

@aredridel Yes, it's a newly registered account. I'm not stupid. I don't want to be blackballed in the industry for having conservative religious beliefs.

[erisdev]

@jedstraw @andrewmcwatters cool gaslight brah.

[andrewmcwatters]

@erisdev ?

[BeauBouchard]

@meh, Please stop responding, This issue is being linked all over the internet, several forums are targeting this project and raiding it right now.

I highly recommend going into damage control mode and just not replying to these posts. There isn't constructive discussion going on anymore, its people with hurt feelings going out for their way for revenge guised as justice.

[humantorch]

I can't believe this issue hasn't been locked yet. Between the endless circular arguments and sockpuppet troll accounts this has completely run it's course.

[ipsumx]

@meh I subscribe to your worldview. It should be possible to contribute to an OSS project and be a real-life bona fide asshole at the same time ;)

[abritinthebay]

There's a lot of heated crap being posted in this thread.

@meh - would you at least agree that the statements made on that Twitter post are not representative of how the Opal project wishes to present itself to the world?

If that's true - acknowledging that would go at least some way to moving forward (aside from the trolls in here).

[qq4u]

Hey everybody,
Seems like we have an exciting conversation going. I just got here, is there anyway I can get a tl;dr?
I hope everyone has a fantastic day!

[jebrosmund]

@meh I agree with with @ipsumx here. Please stop responding, for the project's wellbeing.

Shit (e.g. reddit/imgur/4chan/worst of the internet) is coming in.

[ghost]

@qq4u SJW's didn't like the 2nd top contributor tweet, wanted him to be removed from the project.

[jebrosmund]

@Lolniggers lol mystery meat. Vegans are funny.

[meh]

@juanplopes

@meh If the State ensures freedom by enforcing laws, is that taking freedom away, or making sure everyone gets a fair share of it?

It wouldn't be taking freedoms away, there has never been the freedom to bring personal views unrelated to the technology onto issues, IRC, mailing list, etc.

It would simply be a statement of the obvious. With the code of conduct @elia would still be able to do what he did, and not to do what he never did.

[jebrosmund]

@lolnigger AND MAYBE THE EVEN DIDN'T MEAN IT LIKE THIS

[CBElizabeth]

Caveat: I am merely a member of the peanut gallery (and the queer community, and of the Ruby community at large) who has been watching this unfold for the past few hours.

I don't think that @elia was speaking out of malice, but out of ignorance, and my first instinct would be to contact him privately and explain why what he said was entirely out of line. He might not realize it.

I do think that there has been a lot of vitriol in this discussion, from both sides of the argument, and that's frustrating to see. This is definitely a topic worth discussing, though arguably this isn't the best venue for it. And the discussion hasn't gone anywhere in awhile. Plus, the trolls have arrived.

[abritinthebay]

(oh look the fools who throw around "SJW" like it doesn't make them look stupid are here... yeesh)

[abritinthebay]

@CBElizabeth - that's a great perspective.

[to-json]

And you have no information to know if I'm a good person or not, and never will, because I don't mix things that are irrelevant to eachother.

For a long time I held that this was the only way to be; that the separation of concerns was the only way to optimize for correctness. However, it turns out that programmers are arrogant and correctness is actually rather easy. What's hard is rallying a group of people who are pleasant to be around with a wide variety of experiences and perspective to contribute. So solving for that by working only with people that actively affirm their decency is worth the effort, as it yields teams who intentionally cross the streams, like Loomio's, to good effect.

[ghost]

@abritinthebay Oh yeah, and is TOTTALY reasonable to ask for the 2nd top contributor to be removed because he had a different opinion on an unrelated social issue. You guys are surely not looking like idiots.

[meh]

@BeauBouchard

@meh, Please stop responding, This issue is being linked all over the internet, several forums are targeting this project and raiding it right now.

I highly recommend going into damage control mode and just not replying to these posts. There isn't constructive discussion going on anymore, its people with hurt feelings going out for their way for revenge guised as justice.

I know, but it would be rude to not reply to them, and it would go against what I stated previously if I were to lock the issue.

Thanks tho 🐼

[ipsumx]

@CBElizabeth You nailed it.

[abritinthebay]

@mrseth - If you read my comment further up, I agreed that was not the right thing to do. @CBElizabeth seems to have the same view btw.

But the trolls in here throwing around "SJW" like it doesn't make them look like the same hateful idiots that give tech a bad name aren't even discussing the issue - preferring to post under troll accounts.

[meh]

@abritinthebay

@meh - would you at least agree that the statements made on that Twitter post are not representative of how the Opal project wishes to present itself to the world?

If that's true - acknowledging that would go at least some way to moving forward (aside from the trolls in here).

That's already been stated in this issue and in the official Opal twitter account, Opal has no opinions since it's a project.

[AMHOL]

@CoralineAda https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/611576768709787649 are you implying that anti-racism messages should only apply to white people?

I hope you understand that that, in itself, is racist

[vlj]

@meh Opal is an organisation, and thus “The culture of any organization is shaped by the worst behavior the leader is willing to tolerate." (quote from Gruenter and Whitaker)

[chrispickard]

@meh when you have someone named @LolNiggers defending you it's probably time to stop and reevaluate.

[jebrosmund]

@chrispickard or just stop discussion, as troll takes over.

[abritinthebay]

Opal has no opinions since it's a project.

@meh - I don't know you, but you seem level headed (and are dealing with this shitstorm quite level headedly btw, even if we disagree). But... this shows an astounding level of ignorance of how the OSS community - and people even - works.

That's never been true of any project - the very act of making a projected OS is an opinion of the maintainers and community by a project. Of course the project and maintainers can be more or less opinionated and promote specific views. In this case you and the Opal twitter account saying it's not representative is just that.

I think it's good that you and the Opal twitter account have said that. Honestly... it should end there. But unfortunately I think you dealt with the initial post poorly and dismissively and so it's exploded.

It's going to be dragged into the dirt by trolls like the lovely Lol acct there too.

[abritinthebay]

Yeah, the trolls have been linked here. I don't think that is @meh's fault and they aren't really supporting him so much as inserting their crap into the conversation like they love to do.

[meh]

@ChrisPickard

@meh when you have someone named @LolNiggers defending you it's probably time to stop and reevaluate.

It's not my fault the trolls come, and since it's a fake account it might very well be someone who isn't actually defending me, you know, fake account, trolls, stir up the flame, usual internet discussion involution.

[emilyrose]

@emilyrose Did you ever use contact ANY contributor of Opal? If not, you don't have the right to warn anyone of anything.

Yes, I have! Thanks for your completely objective concern, though! 😸

[davidcelis]

Opal has no opinions since it's a project.

@meh, honestly… Repeatedly parroting your thought that this issue is "irrelevant" because Opal is a technology isn't helping. I think it's admirable that you continue to respond to people here. I think that your willingness to accept a Code of Conduct as proposed in #942 is admirable. But you should stop trying to separate your technologies from your people. That separation has never existed. Yes, software is evaluated by machines. But it's written by and contributed to by and read by people. Yes, machines don't care what your contributors say on Twitter. But your other contributors and potential future contributors do care. You're just brushing that aside in a misguided and, in all likelihood, extremely futile attempt to separate code from people.

[jebrosmund]

@emilyrose so did you experience any oppression while contacting said contributor?

[shenanigans]

If you came here to argue that @elia has opinions that exclude others and should therefor be excluded in actual fact, try thinking a little harder. We're doing ourselves a disservice these days by being a demographic that works to turn hypothetical bigotry real.

[abritinthebay]

@shenanigans - I think the discussion has moved beyond that by now. Aside from the trolls with 0-day accounts anyhow...

[abritinthebay]

^^^ I rest my case.

[davidcelis]

^ In case that's confusing to anybody out of the loop, that comment (and others) were in reference to a troll account that's been removed. Thankfully.

[AMHOL]

@abritinthebay that's a sweeping generalisation, one person in a conversation involving this many is a minority, you shouldn't judge the actions of the many by the actions of the few.

[abritinthebay]

What's a sweeping generalization? That the conversation had moved beyond hateful browbeating of each "side" and moved on to actual discussion? Aside from trolls that is?

Are you suggesting you'd like to go back to the crap-slinging further up in this thread?

[AMHOL]

I thought you were suggesting the contrary

[AMHOL]

My bad 👍

[abritinthebay]

Oh god no. I have nothing against the Opal team or project other than how this issue was initially handled by @meh - and I think if the CoC stuff goes through then I'll feel comfortable recommending the project again.

Honestly I think most productive discussion should move to #942 about the code of conduct. Hopefully the trolls will be stamped out (because they'll show up there too)

[ELLIOTTCABLE]

“I wasn't aware issue trackers were for people.”

This, alone, is everything that's wrong with open source, today.

[RationalThrowAway]

Have any of you read the tweets in question? The meaning seems pretty ambiguous. It looks like it might be case of misunderstanding, poor phrasing, or ignorance. I would have thought the rational thing (Other than leaving personal communications on an unrelated social platform completely out of this project, which would be my preference) to do would be to allow @elia the opportunity to respond to these allegations before starting a internet wide campaign to have him not only removed from the project, but also harassed on social media, and to potentially have his career impacted.

[davidcelis]

In all seriousness now, why can't we all separate politics and our different worldviews from the common goal that Opal's developers share?

Because code is for people.

Do we really have to introduce thought policing on a source code management website?

We're not talking about thought policing. People can think whatever they want. But they shouldn't share beliefs in harmful ways and drive contributors away.

Think about it a little.

We have.

[RationalThrowAway]

Incidentally the topic of reassignment surgery on children is a lot more nuanced than, and it's discussion very far removed from: "This guy doesn't believe trans people are human" which is what I've seen people in this thread summarize his opinions as.

[abritinthebay]

@pay-denbts

why can't we all separate politics and our different worldviews from the common goal that Opal's developers share?

Programmers are people. Contributors are people. You cant' remove the people equation from a project.

Do we really have to introduce thought policing on a source code management website?

I agree the original poster was a bit.. er.. ham-handed and over-reacted. I think clarification from the Opal team was all the was needed. Calling for immediate ousting was over the top (and overly dramatic).

However calling for consideration as a community on how a project's contributors can affect each other and the projects users... is not thought policing so much as paying attention. This is why I strongly support the Code Of Conduct initiative.

Think about it a little.

I have, a lot, as have many others. I'd strongly urge you to do the same.

[ipsumx]

@davidcelis I agree. The first line of the Code of Conduct should read:

1. In case you're an asshole – don't tell anybody. Or better yet, contribute anonymously.

[meh]

@abritinthebay

Oh god no. I have nothing against the Opal team or project other than how this issue was initially handled by @meh

If the title would have been different, @CoralineAda would have gotten a polite answer, I merely replied in tone.

[AMHOL]

@abritinthebay

Well, to be fair, I don't think anyone bothered to stop to ask @elia to whom he was referring when he made the statement.

"@AstonJ @krainboltgreene that happens also after the reassignm. (not talking just about dr. Money) not accepting reality is the problem here" is pretty vague, is he referring to transgender people? The people who refuse to accept the reality that transgender people exist, and won't allow their kids to be taught about it at school? Who knows?

Judging from the tweet that the subject of this issue is in response to, I'd say he probably doesn't hold any discriminatory opinions: https://twitter.com/elia/status/611300709217226754

I think that this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion from the beginning, as seems to generally be the case with these kinds of things, and #941 (comment) hits the nail on the head

[ipsumx]

@abritinthebay

Programmers are people. Contributors are people. You cant' remove the people equation from a project.

We sure can try ;)

[emilyrose]

If the title would have been different, @CoralineAda would have gotten a polite answer, I merely replied in tone.

so to summarize, if @CoralineAda had said "ouch" in a more polite tone, you wouldn't have been so dismissive of this input?

[abritinthebay]

@meh

If the title would have been different, @CoralineAda would have gotten a polite answer, I merely replied in tone.

Fair, but as a maintainer of the community I think you have to hold yourself to a higher standard than "well she started it". I get it though - I've been in that situation: it's frustrating and very easy to be overly short and glib with responses.

[abritinthebay]

@ipsumx I'd go as far to say as that is actually impossible while code is written and used by people.

[krainboltgreene]

@AMHOL Thanks for pulling me in here, but no amount of context changes this from being a personal opinion that trans people are insane.

Coupled with his belief that the Italian Government going to force 4 year olds to touch each other's privates and perform reassignment surgery on young children without their parent's consent, I can't see how anyone could trust him to say anything reasonable.

Of course this entire conversation we're having is a follow up to him linking to a pro-"transracial" article.

[AMHOL]

@krainboltgreene why don't you ask him?

[orangejulius]

@abritinthebay It's not possible or even desirable. We write code, ultimately, even if indirectly, to help people. Considering the effects on other people of anything our projects or their members do is a requirement to produce something useful. We are in a messy but hopefully beneficial part of discovering those effects right here. :)

[abritinthebay]

@orangejulius oh I agree completely. Just commenting on the feasibility aspect ;)

[krainboltgreene]

@AMHOL ...I did? I was in that conversation that everyone seems to be skimming.

[cha0s]

Just want to express undying support for the people actually getting stuff done, as opposed to the people who only seem happy when they tear other human beings down.

To everyone trying to throw their weight around in this space: when you're done failing to inject your politics into hacker culture, why don't you go back to failing to inject them into gaming culture?

[TETYYS]

wow, this is so stupid. if i would own this project, i would close this issue even without saying anything

[krainboltgreene]

Hey @meh, at least you have Gamergate supporting your robotic view of the world.

[rgladwell]

@hnrysmth 👍

[AMHOL]

@krainboltgreene you didn't ask him, you closed down the conversation the second he said anything you could (mis?)conceive as being offensive.

[abritinthebay]

@krainboltgreene as much as the GG/TiA/KiA/RedPill loons are.. well.. toxic lunatics. Lets not lump @meh in with them. They are just using this as a soapbox for their stuff.

you know - like they always do. They love inserting themselves.

[ipsumx]

What's wrong with toxic lunatics having their pull requests accepted if their code is good?

[krainboltgreene]

@abritinthebay I wonder why.

[TETYYS]

@ipsumx this, just look at Terry Davis

[to-json]

What's wrong with toxic lunatics having their pull requests accepted if their code is good?

Writing good code is easier than eliminating the side effects of being surrounded by toxic lunatics.

Edit:

To elaborate, it may often be worth the cost to rewrite their contribution rather than to accept the costs of association.

Not trying to imply that this is the case here, actually, just addressing the direct question.

[meh]

@emilyrose

so to summarize, if @CoralineAda had said "ouch" in a more polite tone, you wouldn't have been so dismissive of this input?

No. It would have been dismissed, but politely.

[abritinthebay]

@ipsumx in general? Nothing. As maintainers of a project though - it gets more complicated.

[vgf89]

Why is this still being discussed?

The opinions of a developer, no matter how toxic they may be, are irrelevant to the project unless they bring them up and make them influence their work on the project, or the developer in question starts attacking people who work on or use this project, especially under their identity used to develop for this project. Their personal opinion doesn't matter in any way, shape, or form until that happens.

[abritinthebay]

Oh look. More unproductive 0-day accounts with nothing to say except insult people. Yeesh. The M.O. is far too predictable.

[cha0s]

Love the ad-hominems. Code has no ideology, I know that must infuriate you.

[abritinthebay]

Code has no ideology

If you believe this then I have a bridge to sell you...

[cha0s]

with nothing to say except insult people

Try for substance if you'd like to have an adult conversation. No one's buying what you're selling, if you haven't noticed.

[krainboltgreene]

@abritinthebay Tell me again how this doesn't fit in with the Gamergate narrative?

[ipsumx]

@to-json I'd argue that we are surrounded by toxic lunatics every day. They're just exceptionally stealthy about their business.

[abritinthebay]

@krainboltgreene I don't think I ever said it didn't?

I just meant lets not lump @meh in with those fools when he's already said the original comments weren't representative of the project and is open to a CoC. That's what I was objecting to.

People like the two trolls above are obviously in the mold you mention (if not GG, then similar hate-driven reactionary groups, they all have the same predictable m.o.)

[orangejulius]

@vgf89 I totally get the rationale behind your argument, and wish it worked like that. Ideally we could just accept good code and call it a day, but I don't think it's that simple. Many many people in this thread have already chimed in saying they aren't comfortable contributing to opal just because of the opinions of one of the maintainers. Some of them are already incredible developers. Some of them are just starting. Some of them don't even write code. But when you sum the potential for their contributions, it's way bigger than any one person.

And this doesn't stop with opal. Think of all the people who had the potential to contribute to OSS (or even become devs at a closed source shop and do useful work), but saw the developer community that reacts with hostility to their mere existence, and then went somewhere else. Usually we don't even hear their voices because they don't even get that far into our communities. A few of them like @CoralineAda have the energy and guts to speak up, but most don't. The biggest thing we can do to help is listen and consider what people not like us have to say.

[Tamschi]

@krainboltgreene I tried to look up what all this drama is about on Twitter, but 60% of what I see is you alleging someone else said various things and not providing sources for your claims. A few times you even had to correct yourself after they asked about it. The rest is either very ambiguous due to Twitter-brevity or in Italian, and sometimes there's obviously missing context that tweets were in reply to but was deleted.

To me it really looks like you're trying to smear someone as hard as possible because they don't happen to agree with you on an issue that is far more complicated than anything that is alleged here.
(Incidentally you have me blocked on Twitter without us ever interacting. Normally I would consider this unrelated, but since you've already brought up the topic I'll say this: You seem far too eager to dismiss anything another person does based on political ideology. It's really appalling to see this kind of mud-slinging, both in this case and that one.)

[simov]

Transphobic maintainer should be removed from project

If you want him removed, start working on Opal and contributing as much as him to everything he did for Opal so we have a replacement that's more in orientation with your morals and views.

That's just the title and the first response btw. Let's meditate a bit on this one, and continue with our lives.

There are plenty of Gay, Transgender or whatever people in the OSS community that are pretty descent on what they do, and guess what everyone respects their opinion if it's right. How strange.

Also, in case someone missed a history class and don't know about the culture that we're building on http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#believe5

To be a hacker, you have to develop some of these attitudes. But copping an attitude alone won't make you a hacker, any more than it will make you a champion athlete or a rock star. Becoming a hacker will take intelligence, practice, dedication, and hard work.

Therefore, you have to learn to distrust attitude and respect competence of every kind. Hackers won't let posers waste their time, but they worship competence — especially competence at hacking, but competence at anything is valued. Competence at demanding skills that few can master is especially good, and competence at demanding skills that involve mental acuteness, craft, and concentration is best.

If you revere competence, you'll enjoy developing it in yourself — the hard work and dedication will become a kind of intense play rather than drudgery. That attitude is vital to becoming a hacker.

[AstonJ]

Wow that escalated quickly.

I also suggest closing the issue as it has nothing to do with Opal; we were having a private discussion that just happens to be on a public platform. As it happens I think Kurtis and I were doing a great job of helping (and I mean helping the cause) something the drama in this thread is not doing a good job of at all.

For the record, I took his comments in that tweet as two separate points and feel this has been blown out of proportion.

[iFletcher88]

Remove this nonsense already, arguing with these people is pissing into the wind.

[to-json]

Think of all the people who had the potential to contribute to OSS (or even become devs at a closed source shop and do useful work), but saw the developer community that reacts with hostility to their mere existence, and then went somewhere else.

I wanna build on top of this. The common narrative is, roughly 'If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen', and there's an elegance to that. However, it sits on top of a perception that FOSS does not need more people. Opal may not need more people; don't know, don't care enough to scroll up and check the open issue count. However, as a whole, FOSS definitely could use more motivated, interested bodies. This is especially true WRT adding things like accessibility options for webapps, or refining UIs. When you select for people compatible with working around assholes, you create large blind spots, and because of the nature of blind spots, you can't even see that they are present until your shit starts falling over or becomes disused. Good projects die because of the perception that the human element is irrelevant.

Also, it's no wonder that ESR wants OSS to be a sociopath friendly zone if you've ever read his blog...

[CoralineAda]

This discussion is even more interesting considering that @meh has repositories named fag and ruby-clit. Just sayin'.

[cha0s]

it sits on top of a perception that FOSS does not need more people

No, it sits on a perception that we don't need more people who care more about political correctness than contribution.

Why does everyone think this is some new idea they are delivering to the unwashed hackers? Open source is completely predicated on cooperation, acceptance, and diversity. You literally don't even have this system to make comments without it. No one is swallowing the poison pill being sold here except the people selling it. That's your right as an Anglo (as I'm sure most of you cultural colonialists are, as per usual)

[Pythagoras101]

This beyond insanity at this point. You people want to live in a world where everyone shares your opinion and if anyone expresses a differing opinion you want to hunt them down and stop them from contributing to FOSS projects, projects you're not even involved with; and you're so zealous in your bigotry you cannot see that you are the aggressor in this situation. You cannot see that a world where people cannot express opinions you find distasteful is not a utopian paradise but a prison that will trap us all. Someone's beliefs have nothing to do with code. These are fundamental differences between our worldviews. If you cannot accept that worldview work a different project that applies your principles there a lot of them starting up I hear.

[to-json]

You wound me, Anal Dash. I am felled by your wit.

[to-json]

No, it sits on a perception that we don't need more people who care more about political correctness than contribution.

You haven't the foggiest what anyone's priorities are, nor what you lose by excluding them. Drop the myopia, it's a bad look.

[ipsumx]

@CoralineAda You're on the warpath now, aren't you?

[TETYYS]

@curti21 emoji laugh

[echoz28]

Honestly, meh, I think you should just quickly have said "Closed as it is not a contribution nor relevant to the project." and locked the thread. These people are clearly more interested in discussing OT subjects than your project.
There are plenty of other places to discuss unrelated things if that's what you wish, all I know is that this is not the place.

[Mori]

I'd have zero problem using good code from a sociopath, such as a person who wishes to banish a contributor who feels that transsexuality is a disorder. Welcome, totalitarians!

[cha0s]

You haven't the foggiest

You're right, I don't.

So, you're saying that you value contribution over political correctness? If so, how is this topic in existence? You are either being intellectually dishonest, or you have some insight into something I haven't considered.

Please, explain to all of us how starting a witch hunt on a developer over their personal remarks on Twitter is indicative of valuing contribution over political correctness.

[to-json]

So, you're saying that you value contribution over **political correctness? If so, how is this topic in existence? You are either being intellectually dishonest, or you have some insight into something I haven't considered.

I'm not the one being excluded (in this case). My valuse aren't really a factor. That said, I value good organizational principles over either of those things.

Please, explain to all of us how starting a witch hunt on a developer over their personal remarks on Twitter is indicative of valuing contribution over political correctness?

It's not. Witch hunt is exaggeratory, and starting this thread indicates exactly one thing: That @CoralineAda saw a problem she saw fit to bring up with the maintainers. It is neither indicative of her priorities, nor those of the people talking.

Know what's important to me? My kids. Good weather. My bike. Fresh air. Code quality ranks somewhere around "Having spare toilet paper" and "Mangoes for breakfast instead of cereal". It's a nice to have.

However, having a good OSS community is more important to me that what I might have otherwise done with spare moments today.

[to-json]

Ouch. Good one.

[shitshillingsockpuppet]

Crying for the removal of any one person from any position due to disagreements of opinion that took place in an outside venue is exactly a witch hunt.

[to-json]

Crying for the removal of any one person from any position due to disagreements of opinion that took place in an outside venue is exactly a witch hunt.

Actually, during witch hunts, real men burned real women on real stakes until they died. By comparison, this was a request that a person no longer have access to a particular collection of bits.

You're right, though, the SJWs are definitely the ridiculous ones here, asking for respect and stuff. How dare we.

[adambeynon]

Edit:

I think my previous comment above was being misinterpreted to my intent, so hopefully here is some clarity. I agree we do need a code of conduct, and #942 is a productive chat on this, and I will repeat what I said in that thread: No contributors code is more important than the community at large. Project owners, maintainers and core contributors represent the ethics of a project. They are given those titles for good reason - to represent the project.

[adambeynon]

For anyone looking to expand on this topic in a constructive manner: #942.

[adambeynon]

I have locked this issue not to stop the conversation, but to direct it to somewhere more appropriate.

Over the last few days, a number of people in this conversation have taken the issue in hand and shown that discrimination against other individuals in our industry is, quite frankly, alarming. The tech/development/computer industry has a long and troubled history of discrimination against various groups of individuals which, judging by some of the comments in this and other threads, shows no sign of improving anytime soon.

To the people who contributed comments and messages looking to improve our community: thank you.

This whole matter could have been sorted in a peaceful manner; instead the problems in our community are not just present inside Opal, they are still present within the whole developer community.

I encourage every individual who has taken part in this conversation to review our recently committed Code of Conduct. That is the standard this project will be run against, however I am open to making further improvements.

Please help continue this discussion at http://metaruby.com/c/ruby-forum/community-issues

Thank you,

Adam.