Trigger setup in TS is highly confusing

[stefanst]

We need to simplify this somehow. I am thoroughly confused by this. I know how to set this up for a Miata, because I followed the evolution. Anything else and I am lost. I just tried to figure out how to set up my BMW M50V25TU trigger and gave up. Primary and secondary should not matter to the user. i.e. "Please use 4 stroke with cam only when primary trigger is on cam". How is a user supposed to know what the primary is?

"For well know trigger types use 0 degrees offset" makes no sense to me either. The offset should be documented and if we have presets that would be great. But some get 0, even though they are not 0 and then others don't? Huh? How is a user supposed to know, which trigger patterns are well known? Well known to whom?

From a user standpoint, I expect the following:

• There should be at least one or more crank trigger input(s)
• One or more cam trigger inputs.
• For cam trigger inputs you should be able to select cylinder bank and which cam
• You should be able to select offsets and shapes for all inputs
• There should be a selection for static or non-static cam (on/off or variable)
• If the cam is non-static, I would expect to be able to enter a range of motion

[rusefillc]

There should be at least one or more crank trigger input(s)

In my opinion 1991 miata does not have any crank trigger inputs. I am failing to comprehend how either of the sensors mounted on the cam could be referred to as "crank"

[stefanst]

Clarification: All inputs should be optional. Of course, at least one of the triggers needs to be available for the engine to run.

On the Miata NA trigger:
Anything capable of differentiating where we are in the 720° of the cycle is CAM. Anything that isn't is CRANK. Or in another way: CRANK is primarily used for ignition/fueling timing. CAM is primarily used for figuring out which cylinder to fire. The physical location of the sensor is not the determining factor.

[rusefillc]

I am failing to agree with "sensor on CAM shaft used for ignition timing is called CRANK sensor" assuming that's the statement you are making.

[stefanst]

I don't really care about nomenclature all that much. It just has to be distinct and easy to understand. We can go with "360° or less resolution" and "720° resolution" sensor. Or "Cycle" and "Angle" or some such. As long as it is explained. The physical location does not matter- the purpose matters.

[stefanst]

Another option would be to lock the trigger down and only give a pulldown list of known good triggers. And maybe an expert mode for trigger experimentation.

[rusefillc]

I absolutely agree with problem statement "trigger is highly confusing"

As of today I am not aware of a full revolutionary proposal how to simplify it.

I have some incremental improvements idea but those are really expensive and with horrible cost/benefit those are not on top of the list :(

Depends on #2077

[mck1117]

We could change the labels in TS based on the trigger type. Miata shows primary/secondary as primary/secondary. 60-2 shows primary only, as "crank".

[rusefillc]

@mck1117 absolutely, I am actually trying to do something like that but it depend on enums in templating to do it nicer.

offtopic-ish: Trying to get rid of "TT_TT_CUSTOM" pattern at the moment

[stefanst]

Maybe we should start smaller with a wiki page that at least defines the terms we use. I'm still stumped by primary and secondary. I assume it has to do with FW wizardry that I do not know anything about.
Such a page might exist, but a wiki search for "trigger" had me clicking on maybe 6 pages before giving up.

[rusefillc]

Depends on #2102

[rusefillc]

I do not believe in wiki - we are not the only one unable to keep documentation in sync with reality. IMHO our only way forward is incremental progress.

At the moment I am trying to make some #2102 which is needed to make some minor TS progress :( @stefanst you are hitting a major rabbit hole here

[stefanst]

@stefanst you are hitting a major rabbit hole here

Excellent. Step 1: admit you have a problem.
Now we just need to figure out the next 11 steps.

[rusefillc]

Progress or not progress?

[mmatousek89]

-start with "PISTON TDC-source" and "ENGINE CYCLE-source" clarification in clear way
-than write help where you explain that PISTON TDC source is usualy that "-2" part of "60-2" wheel on crank shaft which is two intentionaly missing tooths to let ecu know where piston tdc is (and it can be offseted from real tdc) if you have multitooth wheel with 24 tooths for example piston tdc have to be given from camshaft(not possible to use vvt) or secondary sensor on crank (audi?) and ENGINE CYCLE - is given by CAM position so you need to know if crank is in "intake-compression" cycle or in "work(bang)-exhaust" cycle and you can figure it out only from cam sensor or ION sensing or MAP pulsation but due to last two are probably not yet what we do CAM shaft is only reliable source for ENGINE CYCLE

-remove statement that only rising edge is reliable on vr, thats totaly misleading, most car i work with is wired (signal-ground ) for Falling edge !!

-clearly diferentiate sensor locations and their patterns- crank , ?secondary crank? , cam1 cam2 cam3 cam4 ?distributor?

[rusefillc]

Fresh idea: #4031

[rusefillc]

progress:

next steps: disabling VVT where VVT is definitely not relevant, for instance Miata NA configuration

[rusefillc]

Closing for now until fresh feedback arrived for improved UI