Please Restore Athena GUI Option

[guido99]

The GUI Athena option was removed in Patch 8.2.4527. Please restore. Some folk like simple software implementations. Of course, fix whatever others found intolerable. Thanks.

[dpelle]

To @guido99 : can you expand on reasons why you would like to use the Athena GUI?
Why aren't the Motif and GTK 2 or 3 good enough if you need a GUI?
Giving reasons to keep Athena will help you get it back if you have good reasons.

Some folk like simple software implementations.

I agree with that, but that's why I use Vim in the terminal.

Of course, fix whatever others found intolerable.

I did not understand that comment.

[guido99]

My Slackware64 15.0 system is all Xaw (emacs athena/lucid, gv, xdvi) except Google-Chrome browser which is gtk3/4 interface (No alternative). I custom build all my main tools with C, libX11, libXaw that are familiar & easy to implement languages. I find the higher level decoration languages a nightmare. And the enhanced visual effects are just not important in my line of work (physics & math).

I do use vim mainly in a terminal, but, on some occasions, I want a GUI. Athena is all I need. I have tried the Motif option (using it now until Athena returns) & all the gtk's. It all works fine. Along with a propensity to be simple, I prefer code with a small memory footprint. Systems like gtk, gnome, glib, Qt, & KDE are huge consumers of RAM.

The fixes I refer to reference patch 8.2.4525 concerning Athena tests that fails. Just remove it & any others found.

[brammool]

Thank you for your opinion. GTK and others are indeed more complex. Motif, however, is very similar to Athena, except that it provides a maintained set of widgets. For Athena we include some basic custom made ones, which are largely not maintained. That is what we are trying to get rid of, this will make Vim simpler, which is what you mentioned.

You do not mention what problem you have with Motif. Please explain.

[guido99]

At the moment, I have no complaints about Vim + Motif. But, I have not used it for long. It might be OK. I often make changes in the source code of my builds just for personal preferences. While the Xaw widgets are not maintained, I know the code well enough to make the changes quickly. (As I climb the ladder of ever more complex GUIs, it takes seemingly exponentially more time to effect the desired outcome.) If I generate code that needs a GUI, I'll just use the Athena set.

I built a MWM setup some time ago & played with it a bit. As I recall, I had a "devil of a time" finding adequate documentation on Motif. With libX11 & libXaw I have exhaustively detailed PDFs, HTMLs of everything I need on my machine. Motif seems to have been forgotten.

I think it is worth keeping Athena. Note that TexLive still uses the Xaw (not Motif) interface for xdvi its viewer, gv does as well. (xpdf with its dependence on Qt is precisely what I do not want; actually, my browser's internal PDF viewer functions far better.)

It's worth adding that I currently use the i3WM (libxcb). It's inherent simplicity is exactly the sort that fits with the other tools I use.

I believe that there is a dedicated community of Xaw adherents who strive to main the prosperity of this GUI scheme despite its age.

[qsmodo]

I had a "devil of a time" finding adequate documentation on Motif. With libX11 & libXaw I have exhaustively detailed PDFs, HTMLs of everything I need on my machine. Motif seems to have been forgotten.

I find Motif's documentation as good as Xaw's. You can even download the manual pages for each widget (e.g. man XmScrollBar), which I don't think is available in Athena.

But I also prefer Athena for its simplicity — and some minor things such as #9886.

[alexriegler12]

I think it is important that older, simpler GVim GUI options like Athena and Motif are preserved. Not everyone likes bloated GTK apps.

[brammool]

I think it is important that older, simpler GVim GUI options like Athena and Motif are preserved. Not everyone likes bloated GTK apps.

The plan is to keep the Motif GUI. So far I haven't heard a good reason to keep the Athena version around.

…

-- CRONE: Who sent you? ARTHUR: The Knights Who Say Ni! CRONE: Aaaagh! (she looks around in rear) No! We have no shrubberies here. "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" PYTHON (MONTY) PICTURES LTD /// Bram Moolenaar -- ***@***.*** -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\ /// \\\ \\\ sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ /// \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

[guido99]

I'm encountering minor rendering issues with Motif. (No need to delve into them.)

If you intend to keep a single simple GUI, it should be the simplest; ie, Athena.

Simplicity itself is a sufficient reason.

[brammool]

I'm encountering minor rendering issues with Motif. (No need to delve into them.) If you intend to keep a single simple GUI, it should be the simplest; ie, Athena. Simplicity itself is a sufficient reason.

Athena is not really the simplest, if you consider the Vim implementation. For Motif we can use widgets supplied by the library. For Athena a few things need to be implemented ourselves. We have a scrollbar widget and a file selector (which is quite ugly). The font selector is close to unusable.

…

-- Be nice to your kids... they'll be the ones choosing your nursing home. /// Bram Moolenaar -- ***@***.*** -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\ /// \\\ \\\ sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ /// \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

[guido99]

Would it not be possible to leave both Athena & Motif as options? I'm certain Athena would need negligible attention. The Motif font selector panel is broken! (on my system.)

[guido99]

If the goal is to minimize Vim / GVim maintenance effort (time), remove all the GUI options except the latest gtk+ (3/4). Then let the builder continue to select other options per usual.

[chrisbra]

There were some ASAN issues that were nearly impossible to get fixed.

The Motif font selector panel is broken! (on my system.)

So do you know how to fix it?

[guido99]

So do you know how to fix it?

No.

[vim-ml]

On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 11:53:24AM -0700, Bram Moolenaar ***@***.***> wrote: > I'm encountering minor rendering issues with Motif. (No need to delve > into them.) > > If you intend to keep a single simple GUI, it should be the simplest; > ie, Athena. > > Simplicity itself is a sufficient reason. Athena is not really the simplest, if you consider the Vim implementation. For Motif we can use widgets supplied by the library. For Athena a few things need to be implemented ourselves. We have a scrollbar widget and a file selector (which is quite ugly). The font selector is close to unusable. -- Be nice to your kids... they'll be the ones choosing your nursing home. /// Bram Moolenaar -- ***@***.*** -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\ /// \\\ \\\ sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ /// \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

Hi, I'm also a bit sad to see Athena go. I just happen to be doing an infrequent Vim update and noticed. I've used Athena and Motif. I think I settled on Athena because sometimes in the past Vim wouldn't compile on my macos/macports/X11 laptop with Lesstif/Motif but that was ages ago. Both have been fine for ages. I also think Athena is a little less ugly. But that's not important. And it's always there. I've gotten used to the tests crashing because I knew they didn't affect my use of Vim. I'm glad there's no plan to remove Motif. It's the last one left that honours Xresources. If I could no longer automatically size and place windows via Xresources, I'd probably have to stop upgrading Vim. Anyway, here are some test failures (but no crashes!). I've seen the "ttytype=xxx did not fail" before. The remote_expr ones might have something to do with macos firewalling. The OS does pop up a lot of dialogs asking me if I want Python to accept connections. I probably couldn't click Yes quickly enough. I don't know if any of these are important, but I thought I'd show them just in case. cheers, raf macos-10.14.6 configure --disable-darwin --with-x --enable-gui=motif --with-features=huge

…

------------------------------- Executed: 4958 Tests Skipped: 69 Tests FAILED: 7 Tests Failures: From test_options.vim: Found errors in Test_set_ttytype(): command line..script /usr/local/src/vim/src/testdir/runtest.vim[459]..function RunTheTest[44]..Test_set_ttytype line 22: set ttytype=xxx did not fail From test_startup.vim: Found errors in Test_default_term(): command line..script /usr/local/src/vim/src/testdir/runtest.vim[459]..function RunTheTest[44]..Test_default_term line 8: Pattern 'defaulting to ''ansi''' does not match 'E437: terminal capability "cm" required\r\nPress ENTER or type command to continue\rVim: Error reading input, exiting...\nVim: Finished.\r\n\r\n' From test_termcodes.vim: Found errors in Test_list_builtin_terminals(): Run 1: command line..script /usr/local/src/vim/src/testdir/runtest.vim[459]..function RunTheTest[44]..Test_list_builtin_terminals line 7: Pattern 'builtin_dumb' does not match '~ ' command line..script /usr/local/src/vim/src/testdir/runtest.vim[459]..function RunTheTest[44]..Test_list_builtin_terminals line 8: Pattern 'Not found in termcap' does not match '' Run 2: command line..script /usr/local/src/vim/src/testdir/runtest.vim[492]..function RunTheTest[44]..Test_list_builtin_terminals line 7: Pattern 'builtin_dumb' does not match '~ ' command line..script /usr/local/src/vim/src/testdir/runtest.vim[492]..function RunTheTest[44]..Test_list_builtin_terminals line 8: Pattern 'Not found in termcap' does not match '' Run 3: command line..script /usr/local/src/vim/src/testdir/runtest.vim[492]..function RunTheTest[44]..Test_list_builtin_terminals line 7: Pattern 'builtin_dumb' does not match '~ ' command line..script /usr/local/src/vim/src/testdir/runtest.vim[492]..function RunTheTest[44]..Test_list_builtin_terminals line 8: Pattern 'Not found in termcap' does not match '' Flaky test failed too often, giving up Found errors in Test_terminal_builtin_without_gui(): command line..script /usr/local/src/vim/src/testdir/runtest.vim[459]..function RunTheTest[44]..Test_terminal_builtin_without_gui line 8: Expected not equal to -1 From test_vim9_builtin.vim: Found errors in Test_remote_expr(): command line..script /usr/local/src/vim/src/testdir/runtest.vim[459]..function RunTheTest[44]..Test_remote_expr[7]..<SNR>9_CheckDefExecAndScriptFailure[13]..<SNR>9_CheckDefExecFailure line 7: ['remote_expr("", "")']: Expected 'E241: Unable to send to ' but got 'E449: Invalid expression received': ['remote_expr("", "")'] command line..script /usr/local/src/vim/src/testdir/runtest.vim[459]..function RunTheTest[44]..Test_remote_expr[7]..<SNR>9_CheckDefExecAndScriptFailure[14]..<SNR>9_CheckScriptFailure line 6: ['vim9script', 'remote_expr("", "")']: Expected 'E241: Unable to send to ' but got 'E449: Invalid expression received': ['vim9script', 'remote_expr("", "")'] Found errors in Test_remote_foreground(): command line..script /usr/local/src/vim/src/testdir/runtest.vim[459]..function RunTheTest[44]..Test_remote_foreground line 8: command did not fail: remote_foreground("") Found errors in Test_remote_send(): command line..script /usr/local/src/vim/src/testdir/runtest.vim[459]..function RunTheTest[44]..Test_remote_send line 6: command did not fail: remote_send("", "") TEST FAILURE