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RFC: Shutdown of #kmkfw:klar.sh Matrix room #650
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I realize I've forgotten to write out a sunset date, in part because I don't yet have one in mind (pending this discussion). If we can tentatively aim for Feb 14, 2023 or sooner, I'd love that due to scheduling on my end. |
Hi :) I'm very new, just chimed in today. Thought I would just be a silent listener for weeks to come, but suddenly a topic pops up I happen to be familiar with :D This RFC is based on the assumption that Matrix rooms "live" on the home server on which they were created. However, this is not the case. Rooms are completely decentralized and live on all participating servers at the same time. You could shutdown your server today and the room would continue to exist for everybody else.The only ones impacted by the shutdown would be the users of your home server. Well, and of course the room would be left without an admin. So the first two options you mentioned would become just:
The new moderator on Matrix could be you with a new account on a different server. Then nothing would change, except you don't host your own home server anymore. |
In #437 zulip seems to enjoy popularity. If possible I'd strongly prefer having one single solution, instead of two. |
Posting this to both issues (#437 and #650): The KMK Zulip instance now exists, and allows registration with email, GitHub OAuth, Google OAuth, or GitLab OAuth. Once xs5871 is in the instance, they will be promoted to an equal administrator alongside me. I've requested FOSS sponsorship to enable things like public permalinks which should fully bridge the gap between IM and "forums-style" chat: linking Zulip discussions in GitHub Issues would allow any future readers to catch up on context without signing up for an account on the Zulip instance, for example. I'll report back with the outcome of my sponsorship request (I imagine, given that I now work for Zulip and also given that our Matrix room historically is relatively slow-paced, there should be little drama in that request). |
Why not Gitter instead |
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Regarding my earlier comment Zulip Cloud FOSS sponsorship was granted this morning, the linked instance above now has features like public-anonymous permalinking enabled. |
The interface is a bit weird to use
…On Mon, Nov 28, 2022, 6:35 AM Josh Klar ***@***.***> wrote:
Regarding my earlier comment
<#650 (comment)>
Zulip Cloud FOSS sponsorship was granted this morning, the linked instance
above now has features like public-anonymous permalinking enabled.
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Hi ! I'm voting to leave the discord channel alive. I personally only casually check in the discord (and tried to help a few times) just out of convenience as I already use it. I'm interested in kmk but not involved and engaged enough to get yet another IM app to follow (I'm not participating in some community I'm interested in as It seems I would need 10+ different app... So I kind of settled to only the most used one). I don't know what portion of the people are only on discord. I see 485 (108 online + 377 offline) users in discord right now, but don't know how many are on matrix... (If someone can provide the number, I'm curious now). I think a part of the discord users are also there mostly for the simplicity as the engagement level needed is very low when you already have the app, which is already widely spread. |
I don't have a great way to count Matrix-specific users right now; I'm showing somewhere in the ballpark of 500 total users in the existing chat system, but that counts Matrix native users and Discord-bridged users all the same. From a quick non-scientific hover-over of random names in the sidebar (where I got that ~500 count from), it appears 50-66% of users in the room may be Matrix-native, and the remainder Discord-bridged.
I have complicated opinions on whether "low engagement level needed" is actually a positive trait - it would likely derail the thread too far for me to get into them, but suffice to say I'm leaning to mild disagreement here. Stopping to think or to get acclimated to a community before talking is not, in my view, a necessarily bad thing, particularly if no information is chat-app-exclusive without public-anonymous links to access it (for a counter-example, I have many bones to pick with the Android ROM scene for largely being Telegram-centric, an app that requires an account to view any information or download any files, and thus without a Telegram account, many Android ROMs are simply undownloadable. KMK will, I hope, never be anywhere near such a condition.) |
I say go ahead and close both the Discord and Matrix room, leaving just Zulip. I've been vocal against Chat of all kinds though (#437), so you know where I stand. You could work to get other home servers hosting the KMK channel, which is fine I suppose. Though that would mean we don't get the awesome |
My current leading idea, unless there's significant well-reasoned pushback, is to only officially endorse the Zulip chat as a support medium or asynchronous planning platform (aside from GitHub Issues where it's the more appropriate medium). Matrix, Discord, or other platforms are welcome to have their own unofficial KMK communities, under their own moderation standards, with no expectation of maintainers being there (unless they happen to choose to be there on their own terms). I currently do not have plans for setting up a changing of the guard on Matrix or Discord as they currently exist: those rooms are de-facto unmoderated right now anyway, and I have not been active enough in them to keep watch on who should be trusted with moderation going forward. It would be reckless to simply hand "the keys", as it were, to completely random folks, to a room that could be construed as "endorsed" given the channel history, and as such, the likely path is to simply disband the Discord guild, mark the Matrix room as deprecated, and let new communities with active moderation spring up in their place wherever they are (if, of course, they don't move to the Actual Supported And Endorsed Place, https://kmkfw.zulipchat.com)
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@klardotsh I fully agree with your controversial opinion and have nothing of value to add that hasn't been already come up in this discussion. |
Has anyone recommended the forum features available in github? |
Those came up in #437. I personally pushed back on it, but I think the overall vote appeared to be one of indifference, and it's not a hill I'm necessarily willing to die on. |
Hi everyone!
Let's just jump right in, no big opening blurb from me this time:
In light of all of this, I need to make the unilateral decision to responsibly shut down the
#kmkfw:klar.sh
Matrix channel. What we do from here is where the discussion begins. Here are some options I've thought of. I invite the community to come up with more, and to some degree am offering @xs5871 the final decision making authority here, if they want it.In relative order of difficulty or disruption:
#kmkfw
Matrix channel, on Matrix. This might mean the flagship instance, or some FOSS-friendly instance, or maybe even an instance hosted by someone in the community. Matrix supports room moves; we could gracefully move all users in the existing room over to the new one and leave a redirect in place for a while at the Matrix level while documentation and so forth gets updated. t2bot.io Discord bridge needs migrated to new room, and moderation permissions set up.Thanks all for a great four years of KMK so far. I hope whatever we decide here (and in #437) helps set the project up for another four.
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