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WGSL 2021 08 17 Minutes

Jeff Gilbert edited this page Aug 17, 2021 · 2 revisions

WGSL 2021-08-17 Minutes

🪑 Chair: Jeff Gilbert

⌨️ Scribe: Jeff Gilbert, Alan Baker

🗺 Location:

🌐 Timezone: America/Los_Angeles

⌚ Time: Tuesday 11am-noon


Meeting Issues: Marked Issues

Open Issues: WGSL Issues

Note: These are the minutes taken in real-time. The official minutes can be found on the WebGPU wiki.

If you didn't receive a invitation and plan on participating, please send dneto a Google Apps enabled address and he'll add you.

📋 Attendance

WIP, the list of all the people invited to the meeting. In bold, the people that have been seen in the meeting:

  • Apple
    • Myles C. Maxfield
    • Robin Morisset
  • Google
    • Alan Baker
    • Antonio Maiorano
    • Ben Clayton
    • Brandon Jones
    • Corentin Wallez
    • David Neto
    • Ekaterina Ignasheva
    • Kai Ninomiya
    • James Darpinian
    • James Price
    • Rahul Garg
    • Ryan Harrison
    • Sarah Mashayekhi
  • Intel
    • Narifumi Iwamoto
    • Yunchao He
  • Microsoft
    • Damyan Pepper
    • Greg Roth
    • Michael Dougherty
    • Rafael Cintron
    • Tex Riddell
  • Mozilla
    • Dzmitry Malyshau
    • Jeff Gilbert
    • Jim Blandy
  • Kings Distributed Systems
    • Daniel Desjardins
    • Hamada Gasmallah
    • Wes Garland
  • Dominic Cerisano
  • Eduardo H.P. Souza
  • Joshua Groves
  • Kris & Paul Leathers
  • Lukasz Pasek
  • Matijs Toonen
  • Mehmet Oguz Derin
  • Pelle Johnsen
  • Timo de Kort
  • Tyler Larson

📢 Announcements

Office Hour

⏳ Timeboxes

  • Ship it
  • MM: Looks like what we decided on, yes.
  • Ship it
  • JG: Do we want to talk about this before MVP?
  • MM: Important to talk about, because it’s hard to feature-detect, and also people will definitely assume it works everywhere if it works anywhere.
  • AB: Talking about arrays internally, one thing we’re considering is pulling stride into the type. (removing it as an attribute)
  • MM: Is this a functional change?
  • AB: Benefit is that it’s less ambiguous when types are compatible, or when attribs are required.
  • MM: I see three directions:
      1. [[stride=12]] i32[5]
      1. i32[(stride=12), 5] as long as the () parts are optional (or something like that)
      1. i32[5], and if you need stride, use angle-brackets
  • MM: Should we postpone discussion until Google has its discussions?
  • AB: Not ready to agree to a final syntax today, but not opposed to it either.
  • DM: I don’t think C’s syntax is a good one to follow, and I think other languages end up with because of their C heritage. I agree with DN’s points about why this syntax can be complicated/confusing.
  • MM: Yeah, so like i32[4][5] is confusing because it’s not clear what it is? (yeah)
  • AB: I feel like we’re there already with our accessors, so if you have to access them you’re already decoding it mentally somehow.
  • JG: That would be a (i32[4])[5]
  • AB: But that’s backwards from how the accessor works
  • DM: We have conflicting guidelines: It would be nice to have the access and declaration order be the same, but also we should match the C style(?)
  • JB: Comparisons to C are worrisome, because we’ve already decided to swap the order of the ident and the type for declarations. I think if we’re trying to be recognizable, it might be too late to cleave towards what C does.
  • [...]
  • void (*myFunctionPointer)(int[3][4])
  • (We should come back to this in a week after more thought)

**⚖️ **Discussions

  • MM:
    • What should be able to be constexpr
    • Should it be an attrib? New keyword
    • Can you take a pointer to them?
  • AB: + Must the compiler evaluate them?
  • MM: Let’s start with, what can flow into a constexpr?
  • JG: Just literals and constexpr?
  • MM: What about math? (we want math)
  • JG: A couple different tiers:
    • literals and constexpr
    • Operators
    • Builtins
    • Constexpr functions
  • MM: Can’t have sampling from a constexpr, but could do sqrt. Like mathy vs not-mathy
  • JG: I want to avoid defining what’s required for a function/builtin to be a constexpr, but maybe we can just mark a bunch of builtins as constexpr
  • MM: Eventually we want users to be able to do this, even if it’s illegal today
  • DM: If we have constexpr, is there still use for non-overridable constants
  • MM: I would view them as the same feature
  • DM: Same syntax then? If not overridable, then it’s constexpr.
  • AB: Though if you want to forbid sampling, it would look different
  • MM: At the global scope, just let would be constexpr.
  • AB: Yes, but not outside global scope
  • MM: We probably want a way for an author to commit that something is constexpr (and have it validated that it is)
  • JG: OK I think we know what we want to be constexpr-able
  • […]
  • MM: Imagine a program
    • Let x = myTexture.sample(...);
    • Let y = 5;
    • myTexture.sample(..., y);
  • MM: From an author’s perspective, we want authors to know that y can flow into other constexpr, but x cannot.
  • AB: We could have it either be implicit or explicit
  • MM: There are places where constexpr are required, so ideally authors can assert (early) what’s constexpr or not.
  • AB: Technically optional
  • MM: It’d be spooky action at a distance, where somewhere up the dependency tree breaks something downstream.
  • JG: What about constexpr y = 5;, like instead of let
  • DM: Do we need these at local scope?
  • MM: I now think we do, since it’s nice to have declarations near their use site.
  • [...]
  • MM: Could have a rule that, for everything you would use let for at the global scope today, instead you have to use constexpr, and make it illegal to use let at the global scope.
  • MM: So potentially, at the global scope, constexpr x = 5 is legal, but let x = 5 isn’t.
  • AB: Well, this gets into “when does the compiler need to evaluate these at compile time”
  • MM: Specs are as-if, so I think we don’t need to make strong commitments here
  • AB: In floating point, should everyone produce the same bits? E.g. for a program that (implicitly?) relies on rounding errors?
  • MM: We don’t commit to ieee754 so I think it’s fine to leave unspecified
  • AB: Does constexpr in control-flow change static use rules?
  • MM: I don’t think so, and I think we’ve previously said no. In particular dead code elimination is best-effort. (not required)
  • MM: Sort of a separate thing, we should have a reflection API where we would not require identical reflection data to be returned on different APIs or OSes. This reflection data would return information about the shader after the OS-level optimizers have run. It would be part of the contract this this specific API would be intentionally non-portable. The reason is from some advice that Microsoft gave maybe 2 years ago about how authors often specialize huge shaders, and rely on post-optimization reflection data to determine which inputs they actually need to hook up to the shader

📆 Next Meeting Agenda

  • Next meeting: 2021-08-24 (like normal)
  • Do we have enough to discuss? Yes
  • No WebGPU meeting take-over, just normal tuesday meeting
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