Default 'False' output of 0 for Or components

[LeakingAmps]

I just spent a few hours trying to figure out why my circuits weren't working, until I finally discovered that the Or gate (by default) only functions like half an or gate.

I'm sure there's reasons to have it able to do this, but I can't see any good reason to make wiring more confusing by not making it have a default false output of 0 (and that's not including that if you want to use it a bunch, you'll likely have to set the default output on each one, which get quite tedious)

If there's a way to change default component settings on my client, that'd be wonderful, but I don't see a way to do that either.

Edit: Just discovered that And gates do the same thing. Please?

[mygamingaccount]

A good point for having it like that is that gates can shut down when there's no false output, so the result will be more optimal with fewer CPU cycles calculating the logic outputs.

However all of the vanilla ships that could make use of this don't. You see loads of OR components chained up with their false outputs set to 0 when they could've been left empty.

There is an optimization feature that not even the original developers make use of. Then why keep it around?

[mygamingaccount]

https://github.com/Regalis11/Barotrauma/blob/2efdead44bf2fd76adebe19ee881d3c1eb147455/Barotrauma/BarotraumaShared/SharedSource/Items/Components/Signal/BooleanOperatorComponent/BooleanOperatorComponent.cs#L82-L101

[mygamingaccount]

Components stop receiving updates when they are inactive

[mygamingaccount]

@FalcoGer null signals are equivalent to 0 when it comes to logic component inputs. Those only look for nonzero signals.

[LeakingAmps]

From what I've seen, that's not the case @mygamingaccount

Specifically, several or gate with 1/null as true/false outputs chained together, hooked up to a lamp at the end, the lamp will be in its default state until any or gate receives a signal, but after that, the signal from the last or gate will stay high until the ship resets.

This is useful for some cases, but in the general case it makes things not work as expected. I'm not asking them to remove null signals, since I'm sure there are good use cases. However, I'd like to at least be able to change the default output from null to 0 on components on my client, if not as the default setting for new users. Default settings should be set up for those new to the game/designer, not for those that already know their way around it.

[mygamingaccount]

Correct. The lamp needs a 0 signal to reset. The logic components don't.

The default should be false set to 0, but also the vanilla ships should demonstrate how to optimally use components, as they are the first step new players use for learning how systems work. Default subs should therefore change their components to make use of the optimization feature described above.

And if this causes performance issues with too many updates, then solve that by not updating components in storage that aren't attached to walls.

[mygamingaccount]

You seem like the kind of engineer who makes a design with open-collector gates then forgets the pull-up resistors

[LeakingAmps]

I went to college for programming, not ECE, so I don't know what that means, beyond that it's probably an insult?

[mygamingaccount]

Ha! No, not an insult. Now you know what it feels like doing what I wrote earlier. It's a rite of passage.
You were supposed to know since it's all written in the manual that doesn't exist.

[gerakis]

It was totally an insult.

While I get that you had a bad time, other people would also have a bad time if the situation were reversed. Someone will always want it the other way. Eventually you just get used to double checking.

[FalcoGer]

I agree. Any logic gates should start with 0 on the false output, that goes for and, or, xor, greater than, equals and so on. Whenever I place one of those components down, there is a 50% chance i forget to put that 0 in there, because it makes no sense to just have it empty in my head. Null signals are terrible idea in the first place. And after that, i test my circuit and it doesn't work and then i have to click every gate and check the outputs, it's just annoying. If you want a null signal you should opt into that, not out. The definition of OR is that the output is 0 if all inputs are 0, otherwise the output is 1. The way it is by default just isn't like that, and it trips me up every time.

[mygamingaccount]

That's not the definition of the OR component, it's

"Sends a signal if either of the inputs receives a signal"

"Floating input" is not indeterminate, it is equal to 0

There is no EMI in Barotrauma.

Stop pretending that you're an engineer

[FalcoGer]

I tinkered with electronics long enough to know what I'm talking about. A floating signal can float high, which would make it output. The truth table for an OR is indeterminate for a floating input.

Literally take a digital voltmeter and stick the probes in the air. It will not be 0. Surely your engineering degree didn't prepare you for that. I would link you to a few articles that pop up when searching "floating inputs on logic circuits" on your favorite search engine, but I think an engineer like you can figure out how to do that. Or maybe you could just put some ICs on a breadboard and do the experiment yourself. But you'd rather be complaining here about a non-issue, because you're a troll.

I say the game should reflect reality, not the game doesn't work like it says it does. I say that because the way it works like it does is not correct, confusing, illogical and needlessly complicated.

Also please stop trolling. Your constant "No, that's stupid, we don't need that in the game" regardless of what the idea is, just because you got used to the way the game is or because your big brain can't think of a use case is irritating.

I'm not even proposing that you get rid of floating inputs anyway. I just say the default state should be 0, because that is what every computer science student learns and they learn it that way because that is the way it is. What the heck is the problem with that?

If you have a valid argument to make, then argue the point, not insult the people who make the arguments or spout falsehoods that are easily proven to be the garbage that they are.

The ACTUAL definition of an or gate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OR_gate

The OR gate is a digital logic gate that implements logical disjunction (v) from mathematical logic – it behaves according to the truth table above [which does not contain a floating input]. A HIGH output (1) results if one or both the inputs to the gate are HIGH (1). If neither input is high, a LOW output (0) results.

The ACTUAL behavior of floating inputs (hint: they are not 0):
https://www.microchip.com/forums/m447764.aspx

If an input is floating, it will be "high impedance". Therefore it will be flipping up and down at random, perhaps picking up stray RF etc. So tie the pin to ground or rail and it can't do that. Leaving an input floating is a recipe for much unhappiness.

Please stop lying, please stop insulting people, please stop being a dick. Thank you.
I may not have a degree in electrical engineering, but I do in computer science and electronics is a hobby of mine. And unlike you, I know what an OR gate or a floating input is. And even if I didn't, I wouldn't assert things that I pull out of my ass as the truth without even the most basic of google searches.

[mygamingaccount]

Why don't you go and learn a few things before going around insulting people who are trying to educate you? Learn about open collectors for a start. You're trying to push your half-baked understanding of logic circuits into a literal video game.

You not being able to take criticism doesn't add any merit to your suggestions.

[FalcoGer]

I am providing sources while you seem to pull your "education" out of your rear end. Show me the evidence that a floating input is equivalent to 0 as you claim. And when all the sources that I find indicate that something is the way I learned and I experienced it that exact way myself through experimentation, then some guy telling me it's different without any sources, clearly I trust myself and the thousands of others that know how erratic a floating input on a circuit behaves instead of the one guy who thinks that not pulling things to ground is the same as a logical 0. There is a reason why people pull the inputs to ground if they want them off, and they wouldn't do that if you could just flip a switch off and have it floating.

Literally 10 seconds on google gave me this. Why you can't do that and stubbornly claim falsehoods is beyond me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0mwHTYeEPI

you want to skip to 11 minutes.

[mygamingaccount]

The "floating" input on logic components is always equivalent to "0", Check the source of the base class: BooleanOperatorComponent.cs
The incoming signal of a value "0" is equivalent to no incoming signal at all, since it returns if immediately when this is the case.

This is very very useful since it means you don't need to have a million wires going to every single unused pin of all the components on your ship. You can not seriously be suggesting this to be changed, it would make it almost impossible for anyone without many hours of training to make new subs.