Hot Reload removed from dotnet watch - Why? #22247
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dotnet-issue-labeler
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@rgwood you say you've been using the feature "for a while now" but it's only been in since April/May as part of the .NET 6 previews... you've been using it in preview? |
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Correct. It’s been working well for me in the .NET 6 previews. |
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My team is very interested in this feature being available cross-platform, since we have folks on all platforms and primarily use Visual Studio Code. I hadn't noticed the initial announcement, only this mention of it being removed! I don't think it made it into a .NET 6 preview blog post. https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/introducing-net-hot-reload/ |
DamianEdwards
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@LyalinDotCom was kind enough to clarify on Twitter (and to be clear, I do appreciate it; please don't shoot the messenger):
I can certainly appreciate competing priorities, but this is still very disappointing. I've been using this feature as part of my cross-platform workflow, and I was incredibly excited for it in the broader context of the .NET ecosystem. A big part of the appeal of .NET is excellent developer tooling, but all too often that's been lacking for developers who stray from Windows+Visual Studio. This was going to be a flagship developer experience feature that I could get other, newer .NET developers excited about. This seems like a short-sighted decision that will harm the .NET ecosystem in the long run. I can only assume this decision is being made by people outside of the .NET team, and I hope they're willing to reconsider the decision. A former PM for F# said it better than I could:
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Hiding it behind a flag and even dropping some "this feature is unfinished and might be unstable" warning in bold red letters into the console when the user runs it does seem preferable over a complete removal. Especially since the response quoted above doesn't instil confidence in the feature ever coming back to anything but Visual Studio once it's removed. |
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This comment seems especially ominous, even if the following one seems to contradict it somewhat. |
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The comment does read as if there are plans, or at least talks, about deprecating |
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Microsoft does not want you to use .NET or RIDER that's why. Edit: Or emacs, vim, vs code, or any other editor that works with Microsoft's own Language Server Protocol. If you use any of these on any operating system, you are a second class citizen now. |
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To outright remove the feature rather than put it in preview and make the user opt-in, really does make it seem like a conspiracy. You have I think the work had already been completed by the dev team and now management have seen an opportunity to capitalise on Visual Studio licence exclusivity so enterprises dont flock to Rider / VS Code, so it's not just been cut from this release, but cut forever. Just look at the management decisions in Windows 11 (granted, I know this is isn't related to .NET but it illustrates the MS management mentality), Ads in the start menu... At least try and pretend you respect your customers. |
First the .NET Foundation fiasco, now this. Someone at Microsoft wants to kill the Foundation. I don't care that they have to prioritize it internally. The SDK repo and all other .NET Foundation repos are supposed to be open-source, developed in the open and with the community involvement. There should have been an open discussion about it before making that decision behind the scene. The Microsoft's employees could have focused in VS support only while letting the community help for the wider audience support. If the SDK repo is vendor-focused (here Microsoft) then it shouldn't be part of the foundation organization and moved back to the Microsoft one. After all these years, it appears Microsoft teams still don't understand how open-source works. It's all about communication and community involvement. There could already be people working on supporting it for other IDE (Rider, VS code). By not involving the community, you saw the branch there were sitting on. Microsoft's backlog of issues shouldn't be the only backlog but a part of a bigger picture. There are a lot of .NET developers out there, some could have ideas to solve some of the general issues. By shielding their team from the outside world, Microsoft is removing any such opportunity. Nobody wants to spend time contributing to a project where the owners can just kill a feature on a whim. |
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If Microsoft had nothing to hide, they wouldn't pre-emptively lock the PR which does it #22217 Pretty sad and pathetic tbh. But hey, Microsoft ❤️ Open Source |
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To add to the discussion, hot reload in VS22 does not work with Blazor Webassembly Hosted. So CLI actually has a feature that VS22 hot reload doesn't, and now my team cannot use hot reload (which is one of the major reasons for choosing .NET for this project). And of course, we don't all use VS. There are far better IDEs, and this is not how you make yours the most compelling. Reverse this decision Microsoft. Reverse it now. |
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Decisions like this really erode trust in the platform. Please reconsider this. |
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In my experience with Blazor (Server) so far, this feature was working exceptionally well and significantly decreased the dev loop time. Dropping it completely makes very little sense to me (without visibility of the reasoning behind it) and so close to the release of .NET 6 too. This feature has been talked about for a long time, and .NET had been lagging behind other frameworks' hot reload capabilities for years. So this really feels like a lose-lose for the platform and for all of us already using it. Notwithstanding all the other great work the .NET team has been doing, this decision is really disappointing. |
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Well, this deflates a lot of my excitement about .NET 6 and the future of C# development. The support for CLI-driven workflows is something I love about .NET Core and above; whether I'm building a quick console app with VSCode or something more involved in Visual Studio, I loved that I could think of everything in terms of |
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This definitely should be behind a flag or a very good explanation should be written up for why it needed to be removed. |
It's possible that there are sensible engineering justifications for this change, however the complete lack of communication is alarming, especially considering the discussion was insta-locked on the PR. This doesn't just erode my trust in the platform, it erodes my trust in the entire .NET foundation. If MS are willing to push PRs which cut features at the drop of a hat, without any community engagement, ostensibly to force people to use their other proprietary paid products, they're not exactly ♥ing open source, are they? |
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As someone that works mostly using Linux (backend), moves like these do not bold well to the future. Not only keeping it behind their own IDE (making it even less interesting vscode for c#), but stripping the last bit that made this new feature cross platform. Also, from their messages, it seems that they arent even considering revisiting this decision in the future. A sad day for the .Net ecosystem and I hope they reconsider this decision. |
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Was super excited to see .net moving in a great trajectory until this. I hope the team reconsiders, otherwise there's always going to be some level of suspicion now, especially when combined with the wix toolset mess. |
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As someone who's bought 100% into WSL2, this is hugely disappointing. The momentum to support VSCode with C# workflows and the promise this had, this is a mistake to put it behind Visual Studio |
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I think we all lost something today |
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There is a PR for reverting the change in #22262 |
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This literally halved my excitement about .NET 6 and hot reload in general. ping me when .NET 7 arrives Edit - Jetbrains Rider just added support for Hot reloads to their EAP. And also one more thing EAP builds are free until the final release happens! So enjoy! |
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Looks like MS just doesn't care about it's community... :/ |
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I left for Kotlin/JVM and the Spring ecosystem. |
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As a Linux user that is required/forced to use other editors then Visuals Studio (VS-Code and Rider), it's rather sad seeing features like these being locked away to garner some sort of exclusivity, i agree that this is is a big step backwards and hope this will be reconsidered. |
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There has to be a middle ground here. Something that adds checks and balances beyond just Microsoft. All effective forms of government work this way. |
Do you mean Linux sucks? Is Linux a when-it-has-free-time-to-fix-critical-bugs project? |
I referred to .NET competitors. Linux doesn't count; you're comparing apples and oranges. Despite what the fanboys of other platforms would have you believe, there is no platform as mature, well designed, modern, and continually maintained, as .NET. There is a reason for that. If it works, then conserve it... don't fiddle with it so that it breaks.
True. |
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This is how Microsoft should act in .Net Foundation and follow the spirit of Independent. Innovative. Always open source.
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Not a widely advertised fact: Linus Torlvalds, and early Linux development in general, was originally funded by European governments, interested in alternatives to US-produced and US-controlled operating systems. Later links between Linux, foreign governments, and commercial enterprises, are well-documented. As someone who started building Linux distributions at home back in 1996, I doubt Linux would gain its current acceptance without massive investments, especially in its drivers and enterprise-level features, from multiple interested deep-pocketed parties. Who would be the interested parties, other than Microsoft, in case of .NET? |
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microsoft ❤ open source × |
Not sure it's ever possible to build a counter-party as strong as Microsoft, but the amount of people outside of Microsoft with a commercial interest in .NET having a future is not that small. Software developers, consultancies ... probably most people in this thread. Thank you for staying on the issue. I think this is the straw that broke the camel's back. |
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Keep open features coming, or shoot yourself in the foot. Many are just waiting to pounce and leverage a Microsoft OSS bungle. Don't give up all the good by making market-political bungles. Get a good OSS consultant :-) And thanks for all the great OSS innovations... |
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I think .net and the visual studio team should work separately. Visual Studio is a commercial product and .net is really an open-source and cross-platform thing. why you want to limit the capabilities of .net to visual studio. If Microsoft wants people to use their IDE they just have to make it better than other IDEs in the market. C# and dotnet should be independent of IDE and platform like other programming languages. don't limit features to the visual studio only. Visual studio is no doubt a great IDE. don't make it part of the .net ecosystem. people will use the thing they like and benefits them most(visual studio, visual studio code, ride, or anything else). If Microsoft keeps creating these enforcement .net will lose the love it had been given from the community. so people will move to other languages like golang, rust, or dart rather than switching their IDE. Please make .net independent |
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For a relatively long time now (from 2016) Linux is my main development environment for building Azure and AWS based solutions with one exception. I have Windows 10 VM to run Visual Studio. That's right, I am running and maintaining Windows VM just to run VS! I actually like VS and I think it is a great IDE, however it is time for it to go! I am switching to Linux for C# development. Thanks to MS and Julia Liuson in particular for influencing my decision. I plan to use CLI based workflow and if I need an IDE I will use Jet Brains Rider. If Rider is as good as IntelliJ IDEA I don’t think I will miss VS. I think I just made a sound business decision ;-) |
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I just wanted to point out the following Video [0] from Scott Hanselman posted on 2021-11-03. This issue-thread is confusing me. Will .NET 6 have Hot Reload included as it is shown in this video? |
Yes .NET 6.0 will have support for Hot Reload in VS 2022 and on the CLI with |
marcpopMSFT
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"Doubled down on Visual Studio" Boooo, Microsoft! Booooo! SQL Server is fantastic. Dotnet is a powerful langauge. I'm OK to continue to pay thousands of dollars per year for these technologies. But I will not use MS Windows and I will not use your crappy "visual studio for Mac" editor. How about you guys have a serious think and "double down" your support for Visual Studio Code? Why the heck do you even have two different and nearly idential editors anyway!!?? For awhile there, Microsoft was taking great steps towards understanding that almost nobody WANTS to use Windows anymore, in the wider development community. I love Visual Studio CODE because I can deal with 19 different technologies at once (PHP, React, Python...). Get rid of "Visual Studio" completely please. And drop this "vendor tie in" which is trying to push developers back into Windows. If your solutions run on Linux, again I will pay A LOT OF MONEY in licensing fees to continue to use them. Otherwise next project, it's going to be node and another DB platform... |
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Definitely not resolved for me. “Dotnet watch” seems buggy and almost
totally broken.
As for “grave digging” please keep your bad attitude to yourself. This
thread comes up at the top of the list when I search for solutions.
On Mon 6 Mar 2023 at 08:49, Kieran Devlin ***@***.***> wrote:
"Doubled down on Visual Studio" Boooo, Microsoft! Booooo!
SQL Server is fantastic. Dotnet is a powerful langauge. I'm OK to continue
to pay thousands of dollars per year for these technologies.
But I *will not* use MS Windows and I *will not* use your crappy "visual
studio for Mac" editor.
How about you guys have a serious think and "double down" your support for
Visual Studio Code? Why the heck do you even have two different and nearly
idential editors anyway!!??
For awhile there, Microsoft was taking great steps towards understanding
that almost nobody WANTS to use Windows anymore, in the wider development
community. I love Visual Studio CODE because I can deal with 19 different
technologies at once (PHP, React, Python...).
Get rid of "Visual Studio" completely please. And drop this "vendor tie
in" which is trying to push developers back into Windows. If your solutions
run on Linux, again I will pay A LOT OF MONEY in licensing fees to continue
to use them.
Otherwise next project, it's going to be node and another DB platform...
1. This issue was resolved and is almost 2 years old, why are you
grave digging?
2. Visual Studio is nothing like VSCode, it's not even comparable in
any sense.
3. No... Just no...
Get rid of "Visual Studio" completely please.
almost nobody WANTS to use Windows anymore, in the wider development
community.
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This issue has nothing to do with hot reload not working. Its about Microsoft trying to put it behind a pay wall and they reverted that decision due to the community response. (I shouldn't have to describe what the issue you have posted on is about, you seem to have eyes and can read clearly.) Do you often just pick a closed random issue regardless of what its contents are, and just comment your own personal unrelated issues? Hint: No one is going to care about your problems if you don't care to file them in the proper location. |
Seems they don't want you to use it either: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/mac/what-happened-to-vs-for-mac?view=vsmac-2022 This means that had the PR not been reverted it would have been impossible to hot reload on mac (one of the 2 biggest Development OS') ontop of Linux. With their actions to close source the LSP & keep the debugger restrictive they are loosing a lot of goodwill and this issue keeps being referenced as "another reason" they are ruining their reputation. |
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It's a good example of why designing with vendor lock in in mind - regardless of the market share of Linux - is always fundamentally a bad idea. |
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According to this post,
If this is true, it means a few MVPs influenced this bad decision from Visual Studio team. I'm actually investigating how bad MVP program is. This comment from the post really surprised me. |
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I think you've read that the wrong way round. It's saying that MVPs were critical of the decision to remove it. That means they were against the decision that was made by Microsoft. I'd even go as far to say as the MVP program's feedback helped get the feature back in. |
It said 'to pull hot reload from .NET 6' instead of 'to push hot reload back to .NET 6'. Is it possible that MVPs give wrong feedback like hotreload may be used by JetBrain or other IDE competitor? |
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@tonyqus MVPs did not want it removed.
"Microsoft's decision to pull hot reload" = Microsoft decided to remove hot reload. MVPs were "extremely critical" of that decision. AKA, MVPs wanted to keep hot reload. |
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Sorry, looks I have the wrong translation for the word 'critical'. I have this conclusion because of the following posts I found from the Microsoft community. A few MVPs have concerns on the MVP program because Microsoft only wants MVP who can shill for their products. In other words, most of the remaining MVPs are good at shilling I'm afraid. Confessions of a Disgraced Former Microsoft MVP |
It's the following word that makes the difference. "Critical to" means "providing fundamental support for," while "critical of" means "disagreeing with." It would appear that you read the latter and accidentally saw it as the former. |
and others
Hot Reload functionality in
dotnet watchwas recently deleted and it seems that Hot Reload will be VS-only going forward. I've been using that functionality indotnet watchhappily for a while now, and this seems like a huge step backward for .NET. Most new .NET developers aren't using VS, and many aren't even on Windows.Could we get some more information on why this change was made? The linked blog post is very light on details and the PR has been locked to collaborators.
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