Add Meme primitve concept to Concepts

[over2sd]

Added primitive concept: Meme
This is a foundational piece of information, necessary to understand any discussion of memetics. I therefore think it should be included in our list of concepts.

[DefenderOfBasic]

Yes! What is a "meme"? What exactly IS a "unit of information" ? Does this PR count as a meme? (it is a unit of information, and it may spread as people read it and share it)

I have a high standard for these foundational concepts ("egregore" - aka "information environment", is another one I want to open a PR for, but that is also a very foundational concept that needs a precise definition)

I have been mulling over the correct definition of a meme - I was going and try to define a pre-req concept first, about "meme equivalence". When can you look at two things and say "these are the same piece of information" ? I think that is the bedrock upon which we can define meme

When I read something on twitter, and then I see that idea/pattern of behavior on bluesky, I recognize it as "the same meme". There may be some subjective disagreement, but practically people do converge on "this is the same idea" / "I saw it first here" / "this guy stole that guy's idea". No memetic tracing is possible without us being able to precisely answer "when are these two memes the same"

[DefenderOfBasic]

@over2sd you approved #26 but I want to ask if it is clear to you what the difference is between "egregore" and "a collection of memes" (or do you think of them as the same?)

Like @RhysEJF defined it as:

low-pressure egregore - a minority-held belief, often outside the Overton window

I would define that as "a belief" or "memeplex" (for a collection of memes that propagate together, this was coined by Susan Blackmore i think)

An "egregore" is a collective mind agent that persists over time (closest analogy is an ideology, or a company). A meme is something that egregores can take as input or output. Egregores exchange memes, hold them. The memes evolve inside the egregores, etc

[over2sd]

Yes! What is a "meme"? What exactly IS a "unit of information" ? Does this PR count as a meme? (it is a unit of information, and it may spread as people read it and share it)

Yes. This PR is technically a meme.

I have been mulling over the correct definition of a meme - I was going and try to define a pre-req concept first, about "meme equivalence". When can you look at two things and say "these are the same piece of information" ? I think that is the bedrock upon which we can define meme

That is a good question for differentiating memes.

When I read something on twitter, and then I see that idea/pattern of behavior on bluesky, I recognize it as "the same meme". There may be some subjective disagreement, but practically people do converge on "this is the same idea" / "I saw it first here" / "this guy stole that guy's idea". No memetic tracing is possible without us being able to precisely answer "when are these two memes the same"

Traditionally, memes were less about distinctiveness and more about composition. i.e., this shift in how people talk about X is a combination of these 5 memes, from Y, Z, W, and V. I wouldn't say no tracing is possible; only that tracing granularity and confidence are diminished the broader this is defined.

[over2sd]

@over2sd you approved #26 but I want to ask if it is clear to you what the difference is between "egregore" and "a collection of memes" (or do you think of them as the same?)

Like @RhysEJF defined it as:

low-pressure egregore - a minority-held belief, often outside the Overton window

I would define that as "a belief" or "memeplex" (for a collection of memes that propagate together, this was coined by Susan Blackmore i think)

An "egregore" is a collective mind agent that persists over time (closest analogy is an ideology, or a company). A meme is something that egregores can take as input or output. Egregores exchange memes, hold them. The memes evolve inside the egregores, etc

Yes, it is clear to me. I wasn't thinking about the definition in stark terms, when I read that. I just thought the direction that was going was a good one.
Now that you mention it, of course egregore in his definition should be replaced with another term, indicating a memetic clustering.

[over2sd]

While a PR is technically a meme, it is practically more of a metamemetic discussion of a meme.
And perhaps this could be tagged #primitives.