Unicorn Pickup #10990
Replies: 14 comments 47 replies
|
I'll note there are alpha channels and some minor corrections/additions on the sprite sheets, unlike the gif above |
|
I think this could be a nice addition to the engine. It fits thematically. It could be a nice pickup for a scout hero if it's placed further into the map and is found further into the game. The unicorn's speed will slow down the scout so there is also room for some good strategical decision-making. @ihhub, @Branikolog and @Districh-ru ? |
|
I am not sure how a young lady sitting on a stone could be correlated to unicorns🤔 The object looks nice though. |
|
Not my idea exactly, it comes from middle ages mythology. From Wikipedia: One traditional method of hunting unicorns involved entrapment by a virgin. In one of his notebooks Leonardo da Vinci wrote: |
|
Hi, @Mr-Magonus , @zenseii and @ihhub ! First of all, I absolutely love this object and its animation! I think it fits the fairy-tale atmosphere of the game perfectly. I especially like the way the maiden gently wiggles her toes while swinging her leg. 😊 To be honest, I share @ihhub's feeling that I don't immediately associate a maiden sitting on a rock with unicorns, although your explanation is quite well-founded. After reading a bit about unicorn mythology, I realized that unicorns are indeed often associated with innocent maidens. However, I suspect that only a small minority of players will be familiar with this symbolism. On the other hand, if I let my imagination wander a bit, this maiden also reminds me of some kind of forest fairy. The overall composition and color palette give me a strong impression of magic, blessings, or nature spirits. Because of that, I feel that granting a blessing to the visiting hero would be the most natural gameplay interpretation. Something like Luck, Morale, or another magical effect immediately feels fitting. Following the same direction, the object could even teach the hero a random blessing-related spell, from a simple Bless spell to one of its more powerful variants. If we want to stay with the unicorn concept itself, perhaps we could avoid repeating the Genie's Lamp idea. Genies are neutral creatures, so allowing the player to recruit them feels appropriate and doesn't directly strengthen any particular faction, which I think was a very elegant decision by the original developers. In any case, if we decide that this object should eventually grant unicorns to the player, I would personally prefer earning their trust somehow rather than simply purchasing them, as is done with the Genie's Lamp. That would feel much more thematic to me. |
|
@Branikolog obviously as the designer I am partial to my own vision here. If I may I would like to push back with the following anecdote: The Witch Hut in this game is a house on chicken legs. As a child and teenager I thought this was just a quirky design of an old game. I did not realize until I was much older (when the movie John Wick came out) that it was a reference to the Slavic myth of Baba Yaga and her chicken-house. And thinking about it there are many, many elements that only make sense in Heroes if you are already familiar with the source myth: Dwarf Cottage - Snow White And thinking about it further, I think the developers themselves might have known, as the Sorceress is a uniquely female faction. Any rate I would really like the pickup and I do not think the game needs it to be complicated, or to have some Luck interaction. The original text I wrote reads: "An unshod maiden dressed only in gauze & flowers stares dreamily into the wilderness. Do you offer her tribute?" Personally I do not think a player who is willing to rub a lamp to buy a genie will find it needlessly confusing that a mysterious maiden can bring you several Unicorns. |
|
I love the animation. However imo the head is moving too much for someone relaxing in the middle of a pasture. Im assuming it is currently 4 frames, so maybe double that and have each headsprite have 4 frames. Or pick your favorite headsprite and have her head not moving. |
6 frames. You can open the zip or copy the spritesheet below to toy with it. I suppose it's possible to double the frames so there's 6 looking forward and 6 looking sideways. It'd be an easy edit either way. |
|
Here's my reasoning about the maiden<->unicorn relation: As pointed out by @Mr-Magonus, Heroes 2 was never about super obscure mythological or cultural things. When children play this game it might be the first time they hear about a cyclops or a phoenix, but as adults these are among the most familiar, almost cliché, mythological creatures. And this's exactly what the original Heroes 2 designers wanted as explained in interviews by Jon van Caneghem. They didn't add stuff that for example only a scholar in Chinese mythology would know about. It's also worth pointing out that Heroes 2 was made in the US by Americans in the 90s, and what they recognized as familiar non-obscure mythological/fairytale things depended on their cultural background. So in my opinion we need to try to understand what could be part of that knowledge when we try to add thing. A good example is how we added the black cat that gives bad luck. It fits perfectly in the game because this superstition is instantly recognizable in the US. In fact this is probably even known all over Europe. Personally I think this unicorn business could fit into this perspective, even though I don't think most people, US or non-US, know about it, but maybe that's just because I'm male and we're part of a demographic that doesn't know that much about unicorns. |
|
Hey, @Mr-Magonus I think your mythology argument is actually very convincing, and I agree that Heroes II contains many references that most players do not immediately recognize. My concern is a bit different, though. The issue is not the legend itself, but that the object does not visually tell the player what is happening there. Looking at it for the first time, there is nothing that naturally suggests Unicorns. Why a maiden? Why Unicorns? Why not a blessing, Luck, or some other magical reward? I think even a very small visual hint could make this connection much clearer. Perhaps a hoofprint, or any other subtle sign that Unicorns frequently visit this place. I believe that would help the object tell its own story without changing its gameplay. In Slavic mythology, the black cat is also associated with misfortune and is often depicted as a familiar of Baba Yaga in fairy tales. The object itself is quite small, so some degree of exaggeration in the animation might actually be beneficial to make it readable for the player. I would like to see the maiden directly on the adventure map — perhaps the head movement helps bring the character to life rather than distracting from it. A more subtle motion could easily get lost at this scale. |
|
@Branikolog |
|
I don't think hoofprints will be readable. An alternative could simply be the sound—drop the foley I made and replace it with distant whinnying. I'm sure Pixabay or something has free horse samples. |
|
Adding whinnying could actually be enough. |
|
@zenseii Another possible option could be adding a unicorn horn as a small detail — for example, the maiden could be holding it in her hands, or it could be placed somewhere nearby, leaning against the stone. I think even a simple silhouette of a horn could help players make the connection without making the object too complicated. |
Yes, we Americans also know it's severely bad luck to walk under ladders. Might need to add a ladder adventure map object, that heroes can walk under just for bad luck.*
I will say, part of the pleasure of the game and any new addition is the joy of discovery. When I heard a YouTuber say the devs added a black cat, I did not immediately jump to "trade morale for luck", but there it is.
She is kicking her leg and has a butterfly; if the object is accepted and PusshPop's criticism carries over, I expect players will still recognize it as an interactable—there isn't much that the leprechaun is doing in his animation, but he's visibly lively. *not a serious suggestion |
at 1x, you might be right that it is not very noticable, but at x2 (which I play at) ,imo, it is. And it is not criticism, it is just a suggestion. 1x preview: 
2x preview: Left: original 6 frames |
|
@PusshPop Looking at the object sprite, I feel that the choice of clothing color is not the best in this case. From a distance, the yellow clothing looks more like a leg, but one bent at an unnatural angle. I understand the idea behind choosing a light, almost white shade to emphasize the maiden’s purity and innocence, but I think either the shape of the train should be changed significantly so that it does not resemble a limb, or the color should be made more contrasting so that it does not blend with the maiden’s body. |
|
@Branikolog I colored her white & gold since that is the unicorn color, but I can deepen the gold of her dress for contrast. When I said "I suppose it's possible to double the frames so there's 6 looking forward and 6 looking sideways." @PusshPop by that I meant it would need some edits so that a full loop of the butterflies has her head one way, then a full loop with her head the other, for 12 total. I agree it looks less schizo for her to stare in 1 direction for only a 6-frame animation. I don't know who else listened to the sound file beyond Zense but I will make a variation with a distant whinny. I don't want to add a unicorn horn to the prop as that might suggest the maiden herself is murdering unicorns. Maybe I can use the shadow to draw hooves on adjacent cells—there isn't much room though, both in pixels to depict it nor in boundary on the original sprite. |
I completely understand the color palette you chose for her clothing, and I actually like it a lot. However, objectively speaking, those colors tend to blend together at such a small scale. Yes, please try making the clothing a bit deeper and more contrasty. I am confident that this alone will improve its readability.
As for the hoofprints, please give them a try. Even one, or perhaps two, might be enough. I think black could actually work well for them, since hoofed animals often break through the surface layer while walking, exposing the darker soil underneath. Because of that slight depression, hoofprints usually appear noticeably darker than the surrounding ground.
If we can establish a clear visual reference through the hoofprints, I think the distant whinny may no longer be necessary. For some reason, I instinctively associate that sound with the place where the unicorns themselves are gathered, whereas the current concept suggests that the maiden is luring them from somewhere farther away. |
|
@Branikolog @PusshPop @zenseii how does this look? I think shadows are better than true black for hoofprints, since true black hoofprints will render on top of all other terrain assets, whereas shadow hoofprints should only render on ground & ground decals. 
If this is satisfactory, the last change I will make is to vary the upper butterfly animation for a more varied flightpath, since there are 12 frames to work with here. edit: animation speed increased to 200ms |
|
I am not sure how readable the hoofprints would be across different terrain types, but the dress and the maiden animation look significantly better now. Great improvement! |
|
@Branikolog, I don't think this is intended for any other terrain than grass and I don't see why it has to be when there are many objects tied to specific terrain like troll bridges. If it is planned for more terrains then obviously it would need specific versions for each one. |
|
@zenseii |
|
@Mr-Magonus could you provide a single frame of this object on top of grass terrain? This would make it easier to tell if the hoofprints are clear enough. @Branikolog, are you saying that we need this object for more terrains than just grass? Personally I'm fine with it just being for grass terrain. |
Yes, I can do that tonight or tomorrow morning. If a dirt/autumn variation is highly desired, I can do that too, though it'll be a 3x1 object for that variation, with birds instead of butterflies (butterflies usually disappear during fall, at least in the US). That may take longer however. What do you think about the rework below? |
If the object still has interest, I might suggest that the visiting hero must have one of the requisite skills (Diplomacy, Mysticism, or Luck) or be a Sorceress hero. The initial text box will still read: "An unshod maiden dressed only in gauze & flowers stares dreamily into the wilderness. Do you offer her tribute?" Visiting her without one of those requisites will display text such as: "Lacking the mystic fortune or feminine grace to call her attention, the maiden pays no heed to your entreaties." Given the requisite checks the player can buy unicorns normally, with perhaps a short descriptive text in the purchase window like: "She slips off her resting place and leads you to a beautiful place where unicorns graze."
If you guys feel she should be in some way recurring, and not a one-off like the lamp, then I suggest the following: • Reduce initial number to 2-6 That way the maiden can stockpile like any other creature generator, if she is found later in a game. But uniquely and thematically she is fickle, and will not wait around for you to trade resources, should you not buy all available unicorns. |
|
@Branikolog and @Mr-Magonus . I think this idea is maturing and we're getting closer to what the best design for it is. I would like to direct the attention over to a different aspect of it; the leprechaun-like behavior. Right now, I'm struggling to see what it actually gives to the object to have two states (maiden and no maiden) and I've been thinking about what could be a better use of this two-state design. If the maiden is just going to sell unicorns like every other dwelling, which is the best in my opinion, then the fact that the maiden disappears will only serve to tell other players that there's no use in visiting it, or in case of the early game that some player has already been here. In some way this is to the benefit of other players because then they won't waste time visiting it. If we compare this to all other dwellings, other players actually have to waste time going to them to find out if there are creatures or not, and that's to the advantage of the player. Still, this is really small stuff that doesn't necessarily warrant two states of an object. It would be like having a sign hanging in front of the dwarf cottage that says "No one's home. Go away!". In comparison, the leprechaun this two state way of working is there to sort of differentiate it from the daily resource-producing objects (mines etc.), though the windmill and water wheel don't have this. Dwellings are different though, because all dwellings refill by the next week. So my thought was that we need to think the opposite, and have the no-maiden state have some special effect. If we take @Mr-Magonus original idea of only getting one chance to buy the unicorns then that would make thematic sense, but from a gameplay perspective I believe it will create a negative feeling of fear of missing out of the unicorns. Yes, there is always this aspect with creature dwellings when you're afraid that other players might show up and nab the available creatures, but this would this design for the maiden would make that sentiment even stronger. The only alternative idea I have so far is that we don't force the player to buy everything at once, meaning any remaining unicorns will persist. Then, if all unicorns are bought, the rock she normally sits on gets a glowing horseshoe, as a reference to the unicorns being horses and luck being associated with the golden horseshoe artifact. When in this state, any visiting hero will get x amount of luck when visiting. Here's a quick mock up: 
There are pros and cons to this design. One pro is that the dwelling always remains relevant in the game because a boost to luck is as relevant early game as it is late game. In this regard it would be better than regular dwellings which become meaningless in late game. Another pro is that this actually gives some meaning to this object having two states. Another pro is that thematically this luck is a bonus for having given max tribute to the maiden. A sort of reward, though it would benefit enemy heroes too. One con is that in the late game players are forced to buy all the unicorns to get the extra luck, even if they don't care about having unicorns. Thematically it makes sense that you have to give a gift/pay tribute to the maiden for this luck boost to even be available, but that doesn't necessarily make it received better by the players. I could see players buying unicorns just to dismiss them and get the luck. Another con is that it could be very challenging for map makers to find a natural place to put this object because you're basically forced to always put a fountain (+1 luck) wherever you want the player to be able to recruit unicorns. This is just to give an idea of what sort of behavior we could give this object. Perhaps you guys have better ideas that would be interesting to explore. |
|
@zenseii On the other hand, this could be an opportunity to introduce a new type of creature dwelling to Heroes II: an object that provides creatures only once per game and then changes its visual state afterwards. This would make the two-state design meaningful, as the change would represent an actual gameplay transition rather than simply showing that the dwelling is empty. I also like that the object would not become completely useless after being visited, but could transform into something else — for example, a place that provides a Luck bonus. Also, perhaps the Luck bonus does not necessarily need to be tied only to purchasing the Unicorns. Any hero visiting the object could potentially receive the bonus, while buying all Unicorns could simply be the event that changes the object into its second state. This would avoid forcing players to recruit creatures they do not need just to unlock the bonus. By the way, this is not necessarily related to this particular object, but have you considered the idea of Luck bonuses lasting until the end of the current week instead of only affecting the next battle? I feel this type of temporary weekly bonus fits quite well with existing gameplay patterns in Heroes II and could be an interesting direction to explore for future objects or mechanics. |
|
@Branikolog there is no dirt variation (yet), I was just showing what the extant design would look like on dirt. I offered to make a terrain-neutral variation if desired. For example she might have a harp or birds, instead of butterflies & flowers.
@zenseii your idea would definitely have the the constraints you already pointed out, so I do not have much to add to that. However you did spur the thought: say she began empty, then only accrued growth in the following weeks. Disregard any FOMO mechanics and skill filters: she begins at 0 unicorns, then has 1-3 weekly growth. This would steer her towards being a mid/late game balancer against Necro/Wizard/Warlock, rather than an early army boost. A mapmaker could place her near a starter castle and not disrupt first week gameplay. First week (and otherwise empty) text might read: "A golden horseshoe and scent of frankiscence is a sign someone was here, but peering into the wilderness, she is nowhere to be found..." There is precedent with this sort of design with the Watermill, which begins at only 500 gold. Personally, I do not think there is anything wrong with a dwelling or other building having multple states—the game Songs of Conquest did that with almost all visited/unvisited objects, and it had more time to cook (both in development and experience from the H2 formula). While I have qualms with Songs of Conquest's design overall, I do think that was good design: It helps readability when what is empty/visited is visible on the object itself. There is also a emergent bonus of objects like the Leprechaun, in that they are indicators of enemy activity. A player discovering an empty Leprechaun mushrooms knows that an enemy has recently crossed through the territory. |
Oh, it blends so naturally with the dirt terrain that, at first glance, I honestly thought it was a separate object made specifically for this terrain type. I also really like how a few small patches of grass still peek through around the stone, even on dirt. Since many original Heroes II objects on this terrain already include small touches of vegetation, your version feels perfectly appropriate. Perhaps a few of the grass blades in the background could be removed, but other than that, I think it looks completely natural and doesn't feel out of place at all. I understand the idea of limiting its impact during the first week, but I feel that a creature dwelling intended to increase the hero's army is usually introduced specifically to help early-game progression. If we want to prevent players from accessing it too early, perhaps a stronger guard could be a more natural solution while keeping the object valuable from the beginning. |
It is, but this was to complement Zense's point. I do not think guardians are appropriate for this object, and having the object start with 0 growth on week one does have precedent with the Watermill object having halved gold production on the first week, and would serve to keep the object as a long-term bonus, rather than a one-off or immediate power spike, without having to resort to some contrivance by filtering her through skills or other means. Since the team is interesting in new game mechanics—or new variations of existing game mechanics—that complement the existing tone & mechanics of the original release, I thought that might be a good take on Zense's desire to have something beyond a simple boolean animation toggle when she's full of unicorns or not. |
|
Nice asset. Atleast it's clear to me that unicorn represents innocence and is often associated with maidens. The 12 frames animation is the best. I wonder if the color of the dress could be darker, or changed into something else, for more contrast against her legs? |
Thanks!
I had already darkened the clothes once per Bran's suggestion, but I can darken them again. At some point though they won't be gold, they'll be brown, as there's a pretty limited palette that also happens to overlap with the skintone palette. Personally I think the original white-gold was more readable against her flesh tone. |
Uh oh!
There was an error while loading. Please reload this page.
This "Maiden of the Forest" object will function similar to a Genie Lamp, where 4-8 Unicorns can be hired from the maiden. When the last unicorn is purchased, the maiden disappears, replaced with an "empty" decorative rock, similar to a Leprechaun. No weekly growth on the object.
Reason: This is a way for a mapmaker to manually boost the Sorceress faction, who has the lowest HP per week of any faction. Or, for any mapmaker to give a player an early/midgame boost that is more powerful than standard creature generators, but less powerful than a genie.
Src: medieval unicorn mythology said the way to attract a unicorn was with an unclothed virgin. This gets the idea across without being too risqué for Heroes II.
Zip file should contains .bmp and .png sprite sheets for the animations (both the maiden and the empty decorative tile), sound file in 8-bit mono, and descriptive text. She should be ready to go sans code.
maidenOfTheForest.zip
All reactions