Array initialization syntax

[bclothier]

Originally posted in #610, moved here to discuss this issue specifically:

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Dim array(1 To 2, 1 To 5) As Integer => {{1, 2, 3, 4, 5}, {1, 2, 3, 4, 5}}

Type mytype
    var1 As Double
    var2 As Integer
End Type

Dim myvar(0 To 2) As mytype => {(1.0, 1), (2.0, 2)}

Originally posted by @XusinboyBekchanov in https://github.com/WaynePhillipsEA/twinbasic/discussions/610#discussioncomment-1967286

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Blasphemy!

The curly brackets syntax is "stolen" from .Net frenemy and looks too much like C/C++ :-))

Originally posted by @wqweto in https://github.com/WaynePhillipsEA/twinbasic/discussions/610#discussioncomment-1967531

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yeah. that is not how we should do it. it need to be "intuitive"
I would try to use what we already have:
Dim Array(1 to 2, 1 to 5) As Integer = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Dim Array(1 to 2, 1 to 5) As String = "A", "B", "C", "D", "E" next "Z", "Y", "X", "W", "V"
Dim Array(1 to 2, 1 to 5) As Long = 16, 77, , 1 and 6, , , , 1
Dim Array(0 to 2) as MyType = 1, 5 and "Hello", 5 and Name:="Wayne"

Originally posted by @vbBaka in https://github.com/WaynePhillipsEA/twinbasic/discussions/610#discussioncomment-1967684

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Blasphemy!

The curly brackets syntax is "stolen" from .Net frenemy and looks too much like C/C++ :-))

They are just mathematical symbols. You also studied at school according to these symbols of the system.

Originally posted by @XusinboyBekchanov in https://github.com/WaynePhillipsEA/twinbasic/discussions/610#discussioncomment-1968215

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[bclothier]

While I can see the naked initialization possibly working, I wonder how it will work for arrays in an array?

Also need to consider the proposals for UDT, discussed in #600 as to not overlap in a confounding way.

[FullValueRider]

I'm struggling to understand why this topic needs to be discussed. An industry 'standard' exists which would cover all of the potential use cases for twinBasic, i.e. Json. There should be VERY strong justifications for not using the JSON format for UDT/Array/Collection and Dictionary literals.

[Greedquest]

N.b. in Excel there is already a small precedent: ={"a", "b", "c", "d"} for 1D and ={"a", "b"; "c", "d"} for 2D. For higher dimensions, I wonder if they're really that likely to be initialised with values? Maybe 3D or 4D for graphics but I really wouldn't want to maintain that mess ;)

Also devil's advocate here; the array initialisation I hope is not performance critical as it should generally happen only once. Therefore rather than making a new syntax for this to compiler-initialise, maybe it could just be an assignment at runtime from some object on the RHS with an asarray method - e.g. if tuples are supported, they will deal with their own nesting, have their own syntax sugar, be type safe etc. Eventually down the line the compiler could optimise out the tuple object construction if it sees it is just a tuple of constant values being immediately discarded and converted into an array.

[vbBaka]

my opinion is that, if its complex, maybe its better to just initialize the variable normally, like we are used to
and after that add values. I mean, its about readability right?
and I would have something like this:

Dim MyCubic(1 to 3, 1 to 3, 1 to 3) As Long =

I mean. its ridiculous to even try to add values in 1 line.

I think the reason we want to be able to assign values directly, is if theres just 1 value or a couple.

like:

Type MyType
a As Long = 1
rt As String = "Balloon"
b As Byte = 7
End Type

we need to consider how it look. Basic should always try to look nice and clean, not complex.

[bclothier]

What I find by far the most annoying is that I cannot:

Dim s(0 To 2) As String
s = Array("a", "b", "c") 'Compile-time error: Can't assign to array

A generic version may help:

Dim s(0 To 2) As String
s = Array(Of String)("a", "b", "c")

We could even use a specialized non-generic version but the problem is that it'd have to be defined for each data type and wouldn't work for UDTs or objects:

Dim s(0 To 2) As String
s = Array$("a", "b", "c")

With either variants, we can one-line it:

Dim s(0 To 2) As String = Array(Of String)("a", "b", "c")

But you know what? This looks very suspiciously like the same syntax we would use to construct an object:

Dim x As MyThing = New MyThing("a", "b", "c")
Dim y As MyGenericThing = New MyThing(Of String)("a", "b", "c")

So why not:

Dim s(0 To 2) As String = New("a", "b", "c")
Dim s(0 To 2) As String() = New(New("a", "b", "c"), New("d", "e", "f"), New("g", "h", "i"))

'Explicit type specifier for cases where type inference not possible:
Dim s As Variant = New(Of String())("a", "b", "c")

While I find the JSON proposal interesting, I have to wonder because the JSON syntax is not just for array but also for objects and is not restricted to one data type nor a shape. The other issue is that it's technically an associative array, not a plain old array. I also have concern about the use of : for assigning a value to a key which may look alien in VB. We definitely would want a JSON parser but to use its syntax natively? I'm inclining toward no.

[vbBaka]

hm...

Dim s(0 To 2) As String
s = Array("a", "b", "c")

I would like it to be:
s() = "a", "b", "c"
or
s(0 to 2) = "a", "b", "c"
or
s(1 to 2) = "b", "c"
or
s(1 and 3) = "a", "c"

Im not sure we need the "array" command. if the compiler can understand the syntax it could make the code simpler and still quite intuitive since its following how we do otherwise with 1 value

the use of Array is when its undefined,
so Dim s() as String

s = Array("a", "b", "c"") as String but also s = Array$("a", "b", "c")

not sure about "New" it reminds me of creating an object and not assigning values that is why I like "="
and the next line with 4 New. its starting to look weird.

I could work with

Dim s(0 To 2) As String = ("a", "b", "c")

if you think we need something to encapsulate it. like a few functions Line (x1, y1)-(x2, y2)
we could use the same "syntax" here so:

Dim s(0 To 2, 0 to 2) As String = ("a", "b", "c") , ("a", "b", "c"), ("a", "b", "c")
or
Dim s(0 To 2, 0 to 2) As String = ("a", "b", "c") - ("a", "b", "c") - ("a", "b", "c")
or
Dim s(0 To 2, 0 to 2) As String = ("a", "b", "c") And ("a", "b", "c") And ("a", "b", "c")

[mburns08109]

I hate to be pedantic, but...
Dim s(0 To 2, 0 to 2) As String = Array(("a", "b", "c") , ("a", "b", "c"), ("a", "b", "c"))

[bclothier]

Then I have to ask... Why Array for the outside but not for inners? If it's not required for inner, why require it for outside?

This is more consistent:

Array(Array("a", "b", "c") , Array("a", "b", "c"), Array("a", "b", "c"))

or simply:

(("a", "b", "c") , ("a", "b", "c"), ("a", "b", "c"))

[mburns08109]

You're entirely correct, and I knew as as soon as I clicked [Comment] (but got distracted before fixing it myself and you beat me to it).
I'll go with the first one, Though, in my own lazy I-don't-wanna-type-all-that-much-either I can appreciate the desire to do the latter.
Then, I go back to think about the bit about "code clarity" and resign myself to some more typing...for my own good.

[vbBaka]

for me I dont think we need that extra ().
a parser can understand what it need to do without that extra (), so if we add it its just visual, not a requirement for the parser.
this is something @WaynePhillipsEA can answer.
what is possible and what is not, what is "best" to use, since its him that need to code that.

but (x , x , x) seems valid and intuititve and (x) , (x) as well. that extra ((x... not sure.

[EduardoVB]

    Dim MyArray(1 To 2) As Integer = 1, 2
    Dim MyArray(1 To 2, 1 To 5) As Integer = (1, 2, 3, 4, 5), (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
    Dim MyArray(1 to 3, 1 To 2, 1 To 5) As Integer = ((1, 2, 3, 4, 5), (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)), ((1, 2, 3, 4, 5), (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)), ((1, 2, 3, 4, 5), (1, 2, 3, 4, 5))

Or just restrict it to one dimensional arrays (the first option).

[EduardoVB]

Curly brackets should be banned from tB, that could be also another principle in the guidelines 🤣😅

The issue is that they are difficult to type (at least in the Spanish keyboard).

[bclothier]

For the proposal to be complete, we nned to consider jagged arrays as well as multidimensional arrays.

Dim i(0 To 2, 0 To 2) As Integer = (1, 2, 3), (4, 5, 6), (7, 8, 9)
Dim i(0 To 2) As Integer() = (1, 2), (3, 4, 5), (6, 7, 8, 9)

I think using same syntax would be too confusing and technically with a jagged array, we are supposed to allocate a new array for each element. Maybe:

Dim i(0 To 2) As Integer() = Array(1, 2), Array(3, 4, 5), Array(6, 7, 8, 9)

But then one will wonder “why do we sometimes use Array function and sometimes not, missing the distinction between a multidimensional and a jagged array. As pointed before, the Array function as defined in VBx cannot be used like that on the account of it returning a Variant(), when it needs an Integer().

[EduardoVB]

IMO only simple unidimentional arrays should be able to be assigned that way.

Multidimentional arrays and jagged arrays are more rare, and they could well be assigned in the traditional way.

We don't have to add unnecessary complications for the learner of the language, having to learn many intricate syntax options that are only used once in a while (and not really needed at all).

I think the purpose of this array declaration is to speed up the programming and also adding code clarity and terseness, but it doesn't need to cover all possible arrays constructs for that purpose.
95% of arrays are unidimentional (a guess). Those can look good in this type of declaration.

For other arrays types, use the normal way.

[FullValueRider]

I think we need to think deeper about this issue. My thinking is that the reason we are focussed on initialising arrays is because no collection/dictionary object available in VBA allows static initialiser.It seems to me that if it were possible to have a static initialiser for a collection and dictionary you cover a significant majority of use cases. We also need to take a leaf out of the arraylist objects book and allow a toarray method for the collection object and in the case of the dictionary revise the keys and items methods to allow an array or collection object to be assigned to a dictionary via that route.

So my conclusion is that his discussion topic is really speaking to introducing better implementations of the collection and dictionary objects that can be setup using the existing Array(X,y,z) statement.

On a personal level I already have this facility in my twinlib64 library which makes a frequent appearance in the issues forum. I'm busy today but I'll upload as a package on Monday so folks can see what smoke and mirrors can be achieved just through a good library.