Discussion on thaumcraft warp and balancing it

[Prometheus0000]

Refer to #5604

This is so the discussion on warp balance can be separated from the discussion on warp research specifically for BM.

People have brought up: altering the warp theory configs (currently the highest effect is 80, it can go to 200), adding new effects (such as weaker monsters than the wither, or more 'scary' stuff), whether having a wither spawn is balanced (would blow up your base, at least on SP), the fact that pure tear is all or nothing, adding other stuff to reduce warp somewhat (An easier version of the pure tear that reduces it by, say 5? Something like heart canisters that are equippable, stack, and reduce warp by 1/2/3/etc?), a warp ward potion (presumably easier to get than the salt, or longer lasting), the fact that machines that exist (soul brazier and the tumor) have serious bugs, the very high amount of warp due to large numbers of addons, that people don't use BM because of the warp, that people who aren't familiar with TC can easily screw themselves over with warp, and probably some I missed.

[yukieiji]

Info on GTNH's warp

・All Warp Amount:

Permanent	Normal
667	512

・Warp Effect: (+ TC Warp Effect)

Warp Effect	Warp Amount
Fake explosion&Fake Creeper	10
Spawn bats	15
Poison	16
Jump boost	18
Rain&Blood&Nausea	25
Friendly Creeper	26
Lightning	30
Livestock rain	32
Wind	32
Blindness	43
Random teleport	45
Acceleration&Decay&Random tree	50
Chest scramble&Spawn Wither	80

・Item/Machine of reducing Warp

Item/Machince name	Mod	Type and amount of warp to reduce
Sanitizing Soap	TC	Temp only
Tabacco Pile(Default)	Thaumic Bases	Temp only(probability)
Wand Focus:Flux Scrubber	Thaumic Bases	Normal and Temp(probability)
Warped Tumor	Thaumic Horizons	All(up to 50)
Soul Brazier	Thaumic Exploration	All
Pure Tear	Warp Theory	All

・Item/Machine of prevent WarpEffect

Item/Machince name	Mod
Arcane Spa	TC
Thaumic Sauna Stove	Witchin Gadgets
Talisman of Remedium	Thaumic Tinkerer

[Prometheus0000]

The soap has a chance (50%+?) to reduce normal warp as long as you're under warp ward/in the salted water.

[quedral]

Yes, We all know and hate warp. its an annoyance and unavoidable.

Any case if you want to add an item (craftable by infusion i assume) that reduces warp you probably need to code an addon and add items that do that right? i don't see any other way.

Alternatively amount of warp added can be reduced by altering TC and its addons recipes which is kinda PITA going through 1 by 1 each one.

I would like to see amount of warp reduced/removed or managed by other item however both alternatives require serious work and i am doubtful that anyone would like to tackle that.

[Prometheus0000]

Well, I checked and figured adding a new item to warp theory wouldn't be that hard, and it wasn't! I added an item that reduces warp by 1, it goes temp -> norm -> perm so you still need to use soap for optimal usage.

Some things to note:

1. It reuses the texture of the pure tear, if someone wants to submit one with a change in the color slightly or something. The center red to blue or something?
2. I can't figure out how to get the research to unlock OTL. It shows up when you use the cheat thaumonomicon though.
3. It needs a real recipe (for the pack), it's using a copy of the vanilla WT PT one. It should be much easier than the PT.
4. If approved, stuff like the recipe needs to be added to Warp-Theory.zs
5. I tried getting the version to update, it didn't for some reason

You can check out the code or use this file:
WarpTheory-1.7.10-1.0k-Dev.zip

https://github.com/Prometheus0000/WarpTheory/tree/AddNewItemTest

[ScriptedPiky]

I like the sound of it being able to remove warp, but I wonder if there will be a chance to remove perm warp, as being able to remove it on a "lesser" tier item can be quite powerful. However, with some balancing of the recipe, we could strike a sweet spot for it.

[Prometheus0000]

Changed the Warp-Theory.zs, it now shows up properly after you have the pre-req (though, should it be eldritchmajor instead of minor? Will people clear all their warp before getting the second eldritch research?) It currently has the recipe for the Pure Tear as a placeholder.

Warp-Theory.zip

[Prometheus0000]

How about this for the Warp Theory effects config:

Warp Effect	Warp Amount
Fake explosion	10
Spawn bats	15
Fake Creeper	20
Blindness	25
Poison	30
Rain	35
Blood	40
Jump boost	45
Nausea	50
Friendly Creeper	60
Livestock rain	70
Wind	80
Lightning	95
Random teleport	110
Acceleration	125
Decay	140
Random tree	155
Chest scramble	170
Spawn Wither	200

So until you get to 70, no crops will be damaged, and no blocks altered until 125.

[richardhendricks]

Lightning causes damage because it can knock carts off of rails or start fires

[yukieiji]

If we change the amount of warp and warp effect, we have to consider how much research is acceptable.
If you increase the effect of Wither Spawn to 200, you will be allowed to research Ichor(Until the unlock of Ichor, about 200 Warp(Permanent100, Normal100) accumulate)
@Prometheus0000 How much do you think research should be acceptable?

[repo-alt]

Lightning causes damage because it can knock carts off of rails or start fires

Carts, bah, it can destroy a rocket...

[Prometheus0000]

Shouldn't you have carts underground to not get killed by normal lightning anyway? I guess fires are a thing, but all acceleration, decay and random tree (worse than it sounds) all change 'natural' blocks. And I imagine random teleporting is more annoying too.

Well, I don't really have any numbers for you about that. I just think it's too much too soon now, and I also rearranged them in a more logical order. Like, why was blindness 43, while lightning was 30? If people want it to max at 100 or 150, that would still be better than it is now. I do think you'd probably (guessing mostly) have around 100-150 to unlock ichor stuff? But that's just research, you could get that done almost immediately, in MV or HV, right?

Try using the salts for warp ward before going to a rocket. But I don't know if you can place water on other planets, so you might not be able to do the same thing before you come back if you didn't bring a teleportation option.

[ScriptedPiky]

I love that idea actually of increasing the warp effect requirement levels. And if the item to remove the warp is in combination with the re-arranged warp you presented, may I introduce something for this?
If the player has 50 or below permanent warp, the chance to remove 1 perm warp becomes 1% with that item (not the pure tear). For every extra warp above the minimum 50 line, add 1% extra chance for removing 1 warp until the 100% cap has been reached. And depending on the recipe given, this could be an interesting gamble, as removing perm warp is extremely powerful, but spending great amounts of resources for something early compared to the pure tear is certainly interesting

[richardhendricks]

That feels too powerful to me. So at 100 warp the item guarantees removing permanent warp?

[ScriptedPiky]

Ah that seems a lot better actually. Yeah, at 100 & above you'll have a better chance, or anything below 100 will result at a 0% to prevent cheesy gambling methods?

[Prometheus0000]

I have no idea how to code that, so I'm gonna say no. I basically just copy-pasted and changed the names for most of it. Also, 1% sounds kinda low, maybe 2%? if someone else wants to do it. I'm not sure. It depends on what the configs end up like.

Uh, that's what it does now, just 1 point at a time (compared to the PT). Piky suggested making it chance based.