Maybe Konstant dice don't roll (and thus also don't change size)?

[dwvanstone]

I wanted to have a place to talk about these interactions:

Konstant Morphing
Konstant Weak/Mighty
Konstant Berserk

This came from discussions in #91 about Konstant Turbo suggesting that Konstant dice simply don't roll. Perhaps that could become the rule for Konstant?

If so, I'd furthermore propose that Konstant can't change size. (They are so constant they don't change at all!) This solves the problem of a N-sided die showing M for M>N. Weak/Mighty and Morphing would become no-ops. Konstant Berserk would need some thinking.

There is a brief discussion of Konstant Berserk in #1627 which discusses the Konstant die rerolling after Berserk.

[irilyth]

My two (four or five) cents about this:

(1) Remember that when a die "changes size", what actually happens is that the old die is removed from a play and a new die enters play, trigger all the things that normally happen when a die enters play. In particular, Konstant dice do roll when they enter play (e.g. at the start of a round); so if a Konstant die enters play in the middle of a round (via whatever means), it should roll then.

(2) The skill description says "If another skill causes a Konstant die to reroll (e.g., Chance, Trip, Ornery), it continues to show the same value." In particular, I think we've ruled before that the die doesn't actually roll, so it doesn't trigger things that happen when a die rolls, in which case we should probably clarify this text (e.g. "if another skill would cause a Konstant die to reroll, the die is not rerolled and the other skill has no effect").

(3) As a result of (2), I think that if a K+Something die would reroll, and the something skill would trigger on a reroll, then the die does not reroll and the something skill does not trigger. Mood Swing, for example, says "whenever they are rolled their size is set randomly"; since a Konstant die doesn't reroll, Mood Swing on a k(X)? die wouldn't trigger.

(4) As a result of (1), though, I think that if a K+Something die "changes size", i.e. a new die comes into play, then the new die would be rolled as usual. Morphing, for example, says "When a Morphing Die is used in any attack, it changes size, becoming the same size as the die that was captured. It is then re-rolled." So I think a km(6) die that is used in an attack against a (4) would be replaced by a km(4), and since a new die is entering play, it would be rolled.

Mighty and Weak are covered by (3): "When a Mighty Die rerolls for any reason, it first grows" and "When a Weak Die rerolls for any reason, it first shrinks". A Konstant die doesn't normally reroll, so Mighty or Weak on a kH(X) or kh(x) wouldn't trigger.

Berserk is covered by (4): "Once a Berserk Die performs a Berserk Attack, it is replaced with a non-berserk die". So I think a Bk(20) that makes a Berserk attack would be replaced by a k(10), and the new die would be rolled as it enters play.

Turbo is covered by (3): "After your starting roll you may change the size of a Turbo Die every time you roll it". A Konstant die doesn't normally reroll, so Turbo Swing on a k(X)! die wouldn't trigger.

What should happen if a Bk(X)! die makes a Berserk Attack? Berserk triggers, and a new k(X)! comes into play. At that point, it depends whether you think that a new die coming into play in the middle of a round is "After your starting roll", or if it is the starting roll for this die. I sort of thing the latter, and that Turbo wouldn't trigger.

[dwvanstone]

This is all consistent and makes sense to me. Some part of the purist in me likes konstant dice never changing in any way but your description seems clear too.

So the ambiguous cases here are Bk(X)! and mk(X)! I think a "starting roll" would mean the first time that a die rolls (as opposed to the roll at the start of the game). And so when the new k(X)! comes into play it performs its starting roll which won't allow the user to change the size. In essence, konstant turbo dice never get to use the turbo feature.

[irilyth]

The skill description says "If another skill causes a Konstant die to reroll (e.g., Chance, Trip, Ornery), it continues to show the same value." In particular, I think we've ruled before that the die doesn't actually roll, so it doesn't trigger things that happen when a die rolls, in which case we should probably clarify this text (e.g. "if another skill would cause a Konstant die to reroll, the die is not rerolled and the other skill has no effect").

In an IRC conversation this morning, James and I concluded that "the die doesn't actually roll" is wrong, and that Konstant dice don't reroll "after an attack" (we should maybe rephrase that as "as a result of participating in an attack", to clarify that it doesn't mean "at any time for any reason after anyone makes an attack"), but that they can reroll at other times, but they always roll the same value when they do -- but that this might trigger other skills that trigger on reroll, like Mighty or Weak.

A consequence of that ruling is that a Mighty Ornery Konstant die would grow and change size at the end of the turn; a Mighty Konstant Chance die could be rolled, and would grow; and a Weak or Mighty Konstant die could be the target of a Trip Attack, because it would change size, and the new size would roll when it came into play. (So a t(1) can Trip Attack a kH(10:6) or kh(10:6) because the new die might roll a 1; whereas a t(1) can't Trip Attack a k(10:6), because it won't reroll, and thus can't roll a 1.)

Anyone have strong contrary feelings about this?

[cgolubi1]

On Wed, 18 May, 2016 at 07:35:45 -0700, irilyth wrote: In an IRC conversation this morning, James and I concluded that "the die doesn't actually roll" is wrong, and that Konstant dice don't reroll "after an attack" (we should maybe rephrase that as "as a result of participating in an attack", to clarify that it doesn't mean "at any time for any reason after anyone makes an attack"), but that they can reroll at other times, but they always roll the same value when they do -- but that this might trigger other skills that trigger on reroll, like Mighty or Weak.

Hmm, i disagree with this. I think the most consistent thing is for Konstant dice to be constant --- they don't reroll, and therefore they are immune to all effects which rely on things rerolling. IMO we should update the skill help text to say this. Logistically speaking: if what the help text says right now is really "If another skill causes a Konstant die to reroll (e.g., Chance, Trip, Ornery), it continues to show the same value." that strikes me as extremely clearly no good, because then we have to figure out how does that interact with Maximum, how does that interact with Weak?, etc. So i don't think we can reasonably pick what the help text says right now as the correct implementation, because it's too illogical. The only things that make sense are: (a) Konstant dice are always immune from rerolling, or (b) if Konstant dice are forced to reroll, they reroll normally. Given those two choices, i like (a) better (and i think (a) is closer to what we have implemented right now overall --- i.e. the base case of Konstant being targeted by Trip would have to be rewritten if we went with (b)), but if other folks really want (b), i'm fine with that. But i really don't like "Konstant dice never reroll... unless they do in which case they keep the same value... unless they can't, in which case we jump through hoops to figure it out" - that just seems way too inelegant, and IMO it's not necessary for it to be that inelegant.

[AdmiralJota]

What does the original text from the Buttons Brains set say?

[blackshadowshade]

If we decide to go with "konstant dice cannot reroll", then I would argue that they cannot be targeted by trip attacks, nor perform trip attacks. They also should not be able to perform chance rerolls.

[irilyth]

If we decide to go with "konstant dice cannot reroll", then I would argue that they cannot be targeted by trip attacks, nor perform trip attacks. They also should not be able to perform chance rerolls.

I don't think that's necessarily a consequence: Lots of games have the idea of a targeting something with an effect that does nothing. You can cast Fireball at something that's immune to fire, it just has no effect -- the immunity to fire doesn't make you unable to try.

I'm not current with Magic: The Gathering, but at one point there was a distinction between "can't target" and "has no effect". I think "can't be the target of a Trip Attack" is very different from "the Trip Attack has no effect (the die doesn't reroll)". And I think "Konstant dice can't reroll" is perfectly compatible with the latter.

[irilyth]

(It's not actually "has no effect", because the Trip Attack might succeed, in which case it would have some effect, obviously. But the "causes the target die to reroll" effect would be countered by "this die never rerolls". That doesn't seem problematic to me.)

[irilyth]

Just to clarify my own position on this, I don't have a strong stake in either interpretation, but I do want to be consistent about it, and not have a bunch of "unless it'd be more fun to ignore that in this case" exceptions.

I'm also generally pretty willing to argue that we're writing the rules here, not just receiving and interpreting them. Yes, it's interesting what the original Button Brains rules said, and what the skill help text says, and what the code currently does; but if we think the game would be better if the rule were different, we should change the rule. (And note it as a house rule if we want.) My sense is that basically no one has ever agreed with me about that, so I don't bring it up very often, but I still think it. :^)

[AdmiralJota]

The difference between "can't be re-rolled" and "doesn't change its value when re-rolled" sounds pretty similar to me to the difference between "can't target" and "has no effect".

[irilyth]

What does the original text from the Buttons Brains set say?

The last time someone asked this, Oaktree came up with this: http://www.buttonweavers.com/ui/forum.html#!threadId=50&postId=665

[irilyth]

In particular:

After the first roll of the round, you don't re-roll the Constant Dice until the first roll of the next round. Constant Dice keep their original value for the entire round--after all, they're "constant."

That's presumably where I got the "Konstant dice never re-roll" thing from -- it's right there in the original rules.

[AdmiralJota]

I'm on the "interpreting" side of the fence whenever possible, so I'd vote in favor of "Konstant dice don't re-roll", and therefore aren't affected by Mighty or Weak.

But I'd also say that they can be tripped: nothing in the rules says they can't be tripped; they're just contradictory about what happens when they are. So we have to resolve the contradiction one way or the other, and saying that Konstant dice are an exception that can be tripped but don't actually re-roll when doing so seems like a better compromise than saying they're an exception that can't be tripped.