Remove parenthetical symbols for readability and nlp

[345trig]

BPO	46385
Nosy	@stevendaprano, @sweeneyde

^{Note: these values reflect the state of the issue at the time it was migrated and might not reflect the current state.}

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GitHub fields:

assignee = None
closed_at = <Date 2022-01-15.05:43:50.661>
created_at = <Date 2022-01-15.02:50:23.665>
labels = ['build', 'tests']
title = 'Remove parenthetical symbols for readability and nlp'
updated_at = <Date 2022-01-15.05:43:50.660>
user = 'https://bugs.python.org/345trig'

bugs.python.org fields:

activity = <Date 2022-01-15.05:43:50.660>
actor = 'steven.daprano'
assignee = 'none'
closed = True
closed_date = <Date 2022-01-15.05:43:50.661>
closer = 'steven.daprano'
components = ['Tests']
creation = <Date 2022-01-15.02:50:23.665>
creator = '345trig'
dependencies = []
files = []
hgrepos = []
issue_num = 46385
keywords = []
message_count = 5.0
messages = ['410616', '410617', '410620', '410623', '410625']
nosy_count = 3.0
nosy_names = ['steven.daprano', 'Dennis Sweeney', '345trig']
pr_nums = []
priority = 'normal'
resolution = 'rejected'
stage = 'resolved'
status = 'closed'
superseder = None
type = 'compile error'
url = 'https://bugs.python.org/issue46385'
versions = []

[345trig]

Parenthetical symbols like ()[]{} are unneeded if you just remove the complaining in the compiler/interpreter/programming language. It will increase readability and natural language programming( NLP). Just treat the symbols as strings and optional even for lists removing tuples. Tuples are unneeded too. Lists have everything tuples have and more.

[sweeneyde]

"Removing tuples" would be highly backwards-incompatible, as millions of programs rely on tuples, and we can't break them for no reason.

Lists have everything tuples have and more.

Not true: tuples are hashable, so they can be used as keys in dicts and sets, while lists cannot.

The Python-Ideas mailing list, rather than this bug tracker, is probably a better location for these sorts of proposals, so I'll close this for now, but this ticket can be re-opened if you can arrive at some sort of consensus with others on that list.

[stevendaprano]

Dennis beat me to it in saying that tuples cannot be replaced by lists.

But I also wanted to say that it is *not true* that removing bracket symbols would increase readability. Natural language allows parenthetical phrases -- which can be bracketed using dashes (or with parentheses [commonly called round brackets in the British commonwealth]) or even commas -- so even in natural language they are used.

Even programming languages which are much, much closer to natural language than Python, like Hypertalk and Inform-7, use parentheses and delimiters for various purposes, for example:

http://inform7.com/book/WI_21_3.html

Ultimately, we simply can't remove brackets (square, round or curly) from the language. It would make it impossible to tell whether

    func(1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

was a call to func() with 5 integer arguments, or a single 5-element list argument, or two 2-element lists and an integer, or three integers and a 2-element list, etc.

So don't waste your time taking this proposal to Python-Ideas.

[345trig]

Couldn't find that mailing list sorry. There's only 1 for developers like you. Removing tuples would be backwards compatible. My plan would automatically convert tuples to lists. Just keep all the list code besides parenthetical symbols. Merge tuple and list code besides parenthetical symbols if you have to. You can hash 1 item lists.

I do believe in keeping commas to delineate items on a list. Commas are used in natural language lists not parenthetical symbols. Just because natural language programming languages don't have natural language perfected yet doesn't mean we shouldn't perfect it in python 1st. Of course natural language is easier to read and understand than this bug. Why did you say it's not easier? You didn't say yet.

I already tested tuples to confirm your other concern applies to them but not lists. I said keep list code. The mitigation for that tuple confusion is probably in there. Because lists don't have that problem. I never said get rid of lists. I only said get rid of parenthetical symbol complaints. It will just work with hard science. Just test it.

[stevendaprano]

Please don't reopen this issue.

If you really want to take it to the Python-Ideas mailing list, you can:

https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/

or to Discuss:

https://discuss.python.org/c/ideas/6