When hairpins represent rubato (rather than cresc./dimin.) -- e.g., Chopin

[dpezely]

MusicXML already provides the wedge element for when hairpin notation indicates crescendo/diminuendo.

This is NOT a request to change existing behavior.

However, the "hairpin" notation means agogic inflection (often interpreted as rubato) when in context of the romantic period composers such as Chopin and generations of students who've descended from them.

A recent video gives context and details.

See: Ben Laude's 2025 video, The Most Misunderstood Symbol in Music (ft. Seymour Bernstein), which addresses both uses and historical context for our confusion about the hairpin notation. (Disclosure: it's sponsored by the Chopin institute-- implying a bit of credibility. I have no affiliation with any of these characters.)

In lieu of watching a video, resources from it follow.

Advocacy of hairpin as change in rhythm:

• Logan Skelton of U Mich
• Book linked from SeymourBernstein.com
• Heidsiek, Eric. "Dynamics or Motion — An Interpretation of Some Musical Signs in Romantic Music." Piano Quarterly 140 (1987) pp56-58
• The video gives examples of performances where hairpin directs a change in rhythm/tempo:
  • Richard Goode (b.1943)
  • recordings of Ignacy Jan Paderewski (1860-1941)
  • recordings of Sergei Rachmaninoff (1873-1943)
  • Rachmaninoff Études-Tableaux, Op.39 No.6 in A minor
  • recordings of Fanny Davies (1861-1934) playing Brahms
  • Hugo Riemann (1849-1919)
• Clara Schumann (distinguished pianist, composer and teacher of the Romantic Period) quoted in Corbitt's Cyclopedic Survey of Chamber Music, "Like Beethoven, ... The sign < >, as used by Brahms, often occurs when he wishes to express great sincerity and warmth, applied not only to tone, but to rhythm too."
• The Secret Life of Musical Notation, by Roberto Poli. Amadeus Press. 2010.
  • Chapter One, "... Of Hairpins", pp1-67.
  • https://roberto-poli.com/secretlife.html
  • Due to a chain of acquisitions and consolidations, this Hal Leonard subsidiary is the publisher in 2025:
    https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/secret-life-of-musical-notation-9781574671841/

On why most who were trained since early 20th Century treat hairpin as cresc./dimin., the video references:

• Johann Nepomuk Hummel (1778-1837), A Complete Theoretical & Practical Course of Instructions on the Art of Playing the Piano, p67.
• Carl Czerny (1791-1857), Vollständige theoretisch-practische Pianoforte-Schule (Complete Theoretical and Practical Pianoforte School), Op.500, of 1839.

Contemporary examples found in the wild:

• Of those trained according to the principles of Chopin such as Hanna Raniszewska, aka Hania Rani, her contemporary sheet music also uses "cresc." distinctly separate from hairpins in adjacent measures of the same score
  • because we have many examples of her performing her own material, we can hear that it's more rubato than dynamics
  • her sheet music books are available along with her albums; e.g., on bandcamp (as opposed to merely from the label or random publisher)
  • e.g., See closing hairpin followed by "a tempo" in Buka, mm104-105, p19 of Home sheet music book, Third Edition, by Hania Rani. 2020.

EDIT: added bibliographic details for completeness and qualified "rubato" with "agogic inflection (often interpreted as rubato)"

[JacqueH]

It's hardly my place to comment, since I have spent zero time considering this and I am not an active contributor to this project, but I'll just say "that's crazy!" I never heard of this, and I have been playing professionally for forty years. Of course, my experience is all jazz and orchestral. Anyway, carry on the actual discussion.

[dpezely]

Yes, indeed this is crazy. Apparently there was confusion about this notation in Chopin's day, and the book The Secret Life of Musical Notation navigates this madness.

The author explains how various publishers back in the day and since then have "corrected" various scores upon publication, so even what we believe to be historical scores can be misleading.

My copy of the book finally arrived, and 67 pages comprising its first chapter is devoted to this subject. The book gives examples of notation with accompanying audio linked from the author's website, the address of which appears on the page before Chapter One begins.

I've attempted contacting Logan Skelton (U of Mich professor from the video), but his web page (linked above) indicates that he is on leave until start of 2026.

Please discuss with Logan Skelton and/or review that chapter before dismissing this issue.

[mdgood]

This is one of the reasons why MusicXML elements refer to what you see on the page rather than mandating semantics for the symbols. I think it's fine to keep the documentation and descriptions referring just to the commonly accepted interpretation.

[infojunkie]

For my inauguration as MusicXML editor, I moved this topic to the discussion forum. Thanks for this information! This is the kind of real-life cultural context that enriches the community.