BRouter profile settings in Cruiser

[devemux86]

BRouter avoidance options are already available in the latest Cruiser:

• BRouter avoidance settings #134

We can see how we can offer more BRouter profile options in Cruiser.

For example there is the "vmax" (target speed) profile parameter,
which also changes the roads used in BRouter route calculations.

Do you think some other BRouter profile options would be useful?

---

BRouter profile options were also explored in the past by other users:

• https://forum.kurviger.de/t/app-offline-routing-brouter/649/19

You can learn and play with the profile options on the BRouter website.

[DolomitesTom]

Do you think some other BRouter profile options would be useful?

yes, for sure.

[Ciutnik]

In my opinion, everything that can make the routing algorithm similar to the Kurviger is an argument for switching from it to the Cruiser. I am closely watching the development of both applications, because the situation in which I set routes in one and navigate in the other is very uncomfortable.

I love Cruiser's UI and logic, but the inability (or just only my inability?) to route secondary and tertiary local roads keeps me from paying the subscription fee (which I probably will sooner or later anyway) :)

[DolomitesTom]

Everyone can decide that for themselves, but I still find it a little petty to make such considerations because of €10 a year for a great product.

I also plan larger tours with Kurviger Tourer with a little more shaping points, export, import, done. Seriously, what's uncomfortable about that?

[devemux86]

I will probably add a separate section for the BRouter profile options.
They are extremely powerful and we will include many more of them!

[Ciutnik]

@DolomitesTom do not get me wrong. I'm not talking about 10 Euro, but about convenience. I agree that when planning a large trip, it is not burdensome to use two applications or an application and a website. But when planning an ad hoc half-day trip that you'll change X times along the way, you want to make it as quick and simple as possible.

[DolomitesTom]

Sure, the lack of Kurviger routing was also a pain for me in the beginning. But with Cruiser and Brouter everything works without any internet connection. And this is a benefit in many Alpes regions and also other regions in Germany.

[WolfgangZ42]

For example there is the "vmax" (target speed) profile parameter

I'm using two profiles (Moto.brf / Auto.brf), based on the "old" Kurviger-Profiles, and the difference between them is only avoid motorways and vmax.

The first one can be triggered via Cruiser pref file already - would be great if the latter one could also be specified. Then the original car-fast.brf could be use without any changes. Even the nogo-vetos can be assigned to motorcar_short only (for my Munich problem ...).

[WolfgangZ42]

As I'm learning at best by "trial and error" I did use two BRouter profiles, one with vmax=70 and another with vmax=50 to see the difference. It's not sooo clearly as you may see in this screenshot:

The Kurviger and Calimoto routes are really different ...

[devemux86]

@WolfgangZ42 what happens in your example if use BRouter vmax + avoid options?

[devemux86]

@WolfgangZ42

What profiles are in Calimoto and Kurviger?

Are their "fastest" profiles really fastest? They still seem to avoid some fast roads.
Kurviger "fastest" route description: "Mostly" motorways and major highways.

[WolfgangZ42]

BRouter vmax + avoid options?

Didn't use any avoid option in Cruiser, but in each BRouter profile there is avoid_motorways set as "true".

What profiles are in Calimoto and Kurviger?

It is a test of a motobike tour, so in each website was "curvy" set.

For forensic investigation here all tracks: AR_tracks.zip

[Ciutnik]

I did use two BRouter profiles, one with vmax=70 and another with vmax=50

I tried the same comparison (on BRouter-web) and the difference was significant. While 70 km/h is on an expressway, 50 km/h runs mainly on local tertiary roads. So it depends on the case. I didn't change anything except the vmax value.
Edit: The highway avoidance option has no effect on the expressway used in this example!

[Ciutnik]

If, like me, you definitely want to avoid both motorways (for which there is now a switch) and main roads, some solution is the trick of forcing very low speed on these road categories during routing. I used this successfully several years ago using another routing application. I just checked that with BRouter (for now in the web version) it also gives me satisfying results!

Well, by replacing the vavalues e.g. with the following:

assign maxspeed_implicit =
  switch highway=motorway                   30
  switch highway=motorway_link              30
  switch highway=trunk                      30
  switch highway=trunk_link                 30
  switch highway=primary|primary_link       30

you can reach your destination without the danger of completely blocking the main road in the event that there is no other local road nearby. It may not be a perfect solution, but it is very effective. Somehow I missed it before.

What's more! Modifying in a similar way section assign maxspeed_explicit = you can you can limit the passage through cities through switch maxspeed=urban 30.

[devemux86]

@Ciutnik thanks for the extra parameters!

I will check them and how they can be called from the Cruiser environment.

[Ciutnik]

Perhaps on the basis of the above-mentioned speed changes in the brf profile, you can do something like setting the user preferences of the roads used. Once again, I will refer to my good old Garmin 276c, which, in addition to choosing the 'Fast' / 'Short' route option, had 'Own user', realized by preference sliders of different road categories. Something like this:

Category     Preference

Expressway   [#.........]  1
Main         [..#.......]  3
Secondary    [........#.]  9
Tertiary     [......#...]  7

[airald]

I'm used to plan routes using waypoints to force to use the ways I want. The problems are sometimes with certain roads that have a lower category as terciary roads and are not transitable with standard car profiles, even they are allowed to all but are highway = track. I haven't found it yet the parameter to be able to use this kind of ways. If I use a bicycle profile, Brouter use this kind of tracks all the time and it's impossible to plan a route. Brouter is very powerfull, but I need to investigate and learn a lot about it.

[devemux86]

BRouter separate options / profile will be available in the next Cruiser:

[Ciutnik]

BRouter-web has the option to choose between a "Primary" route and three "Alternative" routes. I have noticed that these alternatives can be extremely interesting. It would be great if Cruiser also allowed you to make this choice. It sounds so tempting that it's probably impossible?

[devemux86]

@Ciutnik thanks for the suggestion.

BRouter does not include the alternative routes in the same response,
but it requires separate route requests and use the alternativeidx.

It becomes more complicated for an app to request and receive everything in one call.
But it should be possible, I will check it!

[Ciutnik]

I'm guessing "Alternatives" are only available for BRouter online? I think the easiest minimum option would be to set the vehicle properties to use a user-selected alternative number. But of course, it would be best to be able to select one of the four options (not necessarily presented simultaneously) before navigating...

[devemux86]

Alternative routes are also perfectly possible with BRouter (offline) and will be available in the next Cruiser.

BRouter has the advantage of being able to calculate alternative routes + having via / shaping points.
Most routers require only 2 waypoints (start + destination) to calculate alternative routes.

Here is an example of BRouter (offline) with via points and 4 alternative routes!
Route selection is done by pressing the route on the map.

[devemux86]

One minor request about alternative routes: gray color is OK, but could their transparency be inherited from the color of primary route?

It will be available in the next Cruiser update. 🙂

[Ciutnik]

Great! Thank you very much!

By the way, now that we're on the subject, wouldn't it be nice to see other alternate routes permanently during navigation one of the selected ones? Is it even possible? Sometimes you want to spontaneously change your route in the middle of your journey because there is a better road somewhere or a nicer view. In that case, it's nice to see alternatives that certainly leads to the planned destination. These would be such ready-made ready-to-use routes.

[devemux86]

Now we do not show the alternative routes inside navigation to keep the display clear with our route.
Also there is the advanced route appearance in navigation that: "Show only the active route segment".

Nevertheless, I could show the alternative routes in navigation, if you need it?
What about the advanced route appearance?

Currently we can "Pause" navigation > select an alternative route > "Resume" navigation.

[WolfgangZ42]

keep the display clear with our route.

Thats right, but: I'd like to try what happens if alternate routes are shown. The advanced route appearance is top and should be kept.

Currently we can "Pause" navigation > select an alternative route > "Resume" navigation.

Fair enough for switching to an alternate route ...

[Ciutnik]

Currently we can "Pause" navigation > select an alternative route > "Resume" navigation.

Fair enough for switching to an alternate route ...

Not exactly. You would have to remember the course of the alternative route and be able to visualize it in relation to the active route. I mean a situation where you need to make a quick decision when you hit a road you don't want to go (bad surface road). When you see an alternative route, you just glance at the screen and you know what to do without fear of "getting lost".

This is a solution for those who do not like automatic recalculation.

[Ciutnik]

It was already in my list for a long time

This explains how you were able to implement such complex functionality in just 10 minutes 😃👍

[devemux86]

This explains how you were able to implement such complex functionality in just 10 minutes 😃👍

I implemented it for CycleStreets bike routing that calculates 3 routes (Balanced, Quietest, Fastest)
so was ready to enable it for BRouter as well. 🙂

[abdullahO2]

Thank you very much for these important improvements

[devemux86]

@DolomitesTom did you solve your report?
(it is not here anymore)

It is best to avoid changing at the same time:

• BRouter profiles externally
• BRouter settings in Cruiser

I tested with the original BRouter profiles and BRouter avoidance settings seem to work?

[DolomitesTom]

yes, I sorted it out. The mapping in Brouter also has to be correct for any profile, car-fast, car-eco and others. If this not maps to the same settings as in Cruiser, then it doesn't work as expected.

[devemux86]

BRouter options for bike will also have their own location in Cruiser settings.
Do you have specific BRouter bike options you want included?

You can check all of them in BRouter website.

[MotoUKRider]

Can you "handle" the barrier and gate permissions in here as per #56 ?

[devemux86]

Can you "handle" the barrier and gate permissions in here as per #56 ?

I will check it!

[devemux86]

We need to see if the "assign" command can be used externally.
Also mentioned for another use above:

• BRouter profile settings in Cruiser #138 (comment)

[devemux86]

I updated above the bike profile options that will be included:
(similar to BRouter website)

• BRouter profile settings in Cruiser #138 (comment)

[DolomitesTom]

Do you have specific BRouter bike options you want included?

the problem is I am not familar with the Brouter settings. Is there a proper documentation, maybe in german, how this all works together?

[devemux86]

There is a BRouter profile guide (don't know about other languages):

• https://github.com/abrensch/brouter/blob/master/docs/features/costfunctions.md
• https://brouter.de/brouter/costfunctions.html

[DolomitesTom]

Thanks will read it when having time.

[devemux86]

Another improvement is to allow users to easily select the BRouter profile inside Cruiser:
(if you want more profiles please let me know)

[Ciutnik]

select the BRouter profile inside Cruiser

Looks promising! Will it be possible in the future to divide the route into sections and assign a different profile to each section? I want to be able to drive to the city border using the "fast" profile and then go around the area using the "curvy" (economic) profile. So what we like the most 🙂

[devemux86]

Will it be possible in the future to divide the route into sections and assign a different profile to each section?

This is already in my list for implementation, please see here: 🙂

• Intelligent calculation of route sections #142

[Ciutnik]

Great! Thank you very much! I was sure I read an announcement of this functionality somewhere, but I couldn't find where.

If I understand correctly, BRouter profiles will still be editable by the user, because I have very good experience with this (I shared my thoughts above).

[devemux86]

If I understand correctly, BRouter profiles will still be editable by the user, because I have very good experience with this (I shared my thoughts above).

Current and next Cruiser use the profiles in BRouter app.

I will check the idea mentioned in the barriers / gates discussion:
(if successful, these BRouter profiles should also be editable)

• Barriers / Gates in BRouter / Graphhopper #56 (comment)

[devemux86]

BRouter profile selection and settings are available inside Cruiser 3.0.19.

"Settings | Routing | BRouter" or search settings for "brouter".

[DolomitesTom]

is there a difference between avoid motorways in Brouter and avoid "Schnellstraßen" in Options? Does "Schnellstraßen" mean motorways or federal highways?

[devemux86]

BRouter now works exclusively with its own settings inside Cruiser in "Settings | Routing | BRouter".

The "Settings | Routing | Options" do not affect the BRouter route calculations.
They are useful for all other routing services.

[DolomitesTom]

thanks good to know.

[0709wiwiwi]

Multiple choice. The chances of getting it right immediately diminish.

[devemux86]

@0709wiwiwi I am not sure what do you mean?

They are different concepts from separate apps:

• Cruiser Navigation profile: select travel mode (car, motorcycle, bike, walk)
  It works with all routers and affects navigation distances, auto zoom, route duration, ...

• BRouter profile: select the BRouter routing mode
  It has its own names and can be combined with any travel mode.

You can now select the BRouter profile inside Cruiser, instead of selecting it externally in the BRouter app.

[0709wiwiwi]

Many options and a simple menu becomes more difficult.
With the v 3.019 I surpringly had to puzzle right away.
You need to master both Brouter and Cruiser menu for this.
(What has been put in the Brouter app must match what follows).
Certainly this combination is not that obvious for newbies.
In the routing menu see Bike at the top.
The one on the top is the boss or maybe he is not ?
Proceed to Brouter, Car+motorcycle menu is present.

In the router menu, maybe you should start by the Service ?
Then choose the means of transport that fits the router engine?
Other KISS ideas certainly welcome.

[devemux86]

I can make the BRouter profile to be auto-selected when navigation profile is changed.
(users can always change again the BRouter profile)

[MotoUKRider]

If you use your own modified BRouter profile (like mine, without gates/barriers), you can't select it from Cruiser. I had to rename motorideruk.brf to car-fast.brf.

I also found the duplicated "avoid" options a bit confusing.

[devemux86]

If you use your own modified BRouter profile (like mine, without gates/barriers), you can't select it from Cruiser. I had to rename motorideruk.brf to car-fast.brf.

You are right, now we call directly the BRouter profiles.
We need to improve the BRouter experience in Cruiser.

Include BRouter profiles in Cruiser (with extra options + allow modifications) is an interesting idea:

• Barriers / Gates in BRouter / Graphhopper #56 (comment)

The thing is that most users are not familiar with custom profiles or the mapping of BRouter modes:
(bicycle | foot | motorcar + fast | short combinations)

We need to make the user experience easier while keeping the flexibility of BRouter available.

[MotoUKRider]

Being able to pick a custom BRouter profile within Cruiser is fine - providing it can access the actual folder of .brf files :) My custom profile is bound be useful for others (pesky level-crossings!) so if it can be included within Cruiser for new installs it has my blessing. The issue of a new user saying: "well, my other app dealt with this route OK." shouldn't occur :)

It seems that there are a number of riders here who rely on different routing options, eg: avoid tolls/motorways/borders/unpaved, very curvy, ride in a westerly loop for 120km, announce turns 123.775m away, keep me travelling at 60kmph etc. User-friendly configuration, away from text files if possible, would be the ideal solution. "Power Users" could make their own edits if they wanted.

I'm only using BRouter because I can tweak it to work, and have some programming knowledge. If Graphhopper behaved itself on the back-roads then I'd probably have stuck with that :)

[devemux86]

User-friendly configuration, away from text files if possible, would be the ideal solution. "Power Users" could make their own edits if they wanted.

👍
This is exactly the purpose behind BRouter's latest changes.
As much as we can satisfy both groups of users.

[Leeb64]

The routing menu is extremely confusing for non-CRUISER users. I would almost say deterrent (my wife doesn't check it).
I think you have to first select the routing service, then the profile, then options.
The whole thing has to be "idiot proof" somehow.
I know: not easy...

[0709wiwiwi]

@ Emux.
An updated example you may find more favourable.

More suitable for both Portrait & Landscape this way.

History Button.
The faster it can disappear the better.
History is useful but the Button application is clumsy.
If you want to go back a few steps you mostly choose the wrong time.
An on map undo redo function quickly shows you all previous states.
Superiorly useful.

[devemux86]

Undo in route planning is already in my list. 🙂

Question: how often do we change the router and we need a button in the front menu?

[0709wiwiwi]

Since you provide a lot of route planners in Cruiser, it is desirable to be able to select them quickly as well.
It has also been asked and is implemented to present the active routing service clearly informative.
It makes little sense when you offer so many services that these are too far away in the menu to set.

Sure the offline routing services become the most valuable. Are so many online planners even necessary ?
Mapsforge maps with accompanying automatic GH routing download is especially attractive for newbies.
If something does not immediately functions to their liking, this is quickly followed by a de-installation.
These instantly so lost new users, try to avoid this by an immediate powerfull ready to use map install offer.
The Brouter app is flexible, but the fact you first have to download the app and routing data puts off new users.
Only once they have than a bit more Cruiser app experience will this additional step than be taken and enjoyed.

[0709wiwiwi]

we need a button in the front menu?

Should you ever offer to mix routing services.
A smooth selection of Services is expected.

• Services mixing is possible ?

A navtrack design by Cruiser_osrm online.
Start navigation in off route position.
Cruiser prompts you towards the Start ?
The connection is by Cruiser_BRouter offline.
Save that new result than as a navtrack.

Cruiser_BRouter_OSRM_20230603_115020.zip

Navtrack BRouter offline and osrm online.

[devemux86]

Should you ever offer to mix routing services.

Currently it is available in navigation with rerouting.

It will also become available in route planning:

• Intelligent calculation of route sections #142

[WolfgangZ42]

Yesterday I was surprised by the BRouter extension in Cruiser - could not define a destination (okay - I removed all default profiles from PROFILE2):

Not a big issue for me now, but when I imagine being on a 3 day tour with friends and not having a fallback like Kurviger 2 ...

Of course I can copy my profiles (#Auto > car-fast, #Moto > car-eco). Then at the next BRouter update this has to be done again. Defining own profile names in Cruiser would help here. Default should be the current BRouter profiles of course. An own profile directory in Cruiser could also be a solution (see #161 (comment)).
My particular problem (Munich, you know) then is the exclusion of "nogo-vetos" - is this controllable by Cruiser at all?
In /settings/routing IMO the "Route type" should be presented directly below the "Navigation profile" (instead of in /settings/routing/options). And could you imagine to add a switch in /settings/routing/BRouter to totally switch off the Cruiser BRouter profile setting? For those who prefer their own setup?
Since I plan and perform my bike tours and walks with Komoot, I do not need these profiles in Cruiser. So far I have used them for experimental profiles also for motorcycle tours:

Of course this should not be considered in the BRouter settings of Cruiser, especially since very good options are already offered in /settings/routing/BRouter/Bike.

[devemux86]

@WolfgangZ42 thanks for the ideas!

The whole implementation will definitely be improved, it's just the 1st step to a closer integration with BRouter.

Currently in your profiles you need to use the BRouter original file names, e.g. car-fast.brf.
Does it help for now?

See also the similar comment above by @MotoUKRider:

• BRouter profile settings in Cruiser #138 (comment)

[WolfgangZ42]

Sure - I've already copied the .brf files. And the nogo vetos are further suppressed as established in the BRouter App. Everything works!

A new line is shown by BRouter and a tap on it offers information about the actual route:

[Leeb64]

The "car-fast" and "car-eco" profiles are identical as far as I know. They only differ in the target speed. But that can be freely selected in the CRUISER....
Kind of doubled..

[devemux86]

@Leeb64 thanks, you are right!
Another thing to improve. 🙂

[DolomitesTom]

and the car-fast and car-eco are overwritten if only segments are downloaded. That's bad because all changes are lost. Then I can always overwrite it again from a backup copy.

[devemux86]

and the car-fast and car-eco are overwritten if only segments are downloaded

Do you mean in BRouter media folder?
You do not reinstall BRouter, only use its download manager?

This should not happen, can you report it in BRouter repository?

[afischerdev]

Did you read the readme.txt in profile folder?
Please copy your profile before you edit.
Standard profiles will be overwritten when new. To make sure you always have the latest ones.

[devemux86]

@afischerdev thanks for the explanation!

The confusion started with the new Cruiser that uses directly the standard profile names in BRouter routing.
Previous Cruiser used the BRouter profile mapping, though it seems more complicated for no power users.

I am already looking how we can improve this situation.

[DolomitesTom]

I guess we need more Brouter specific parameters in Cruiser in order to not needing to edit the original brf files or even rename it, for example like this urban 30 proposal in order to not route through cities or mabe also some new in order to realize curvy roads. If you are working together with afischer what seems to be a good connection, maybe this is somewhen possible 🙂.

[Cer-o]

Hello, everyone. I have read the entire thread and due to my limited knowledge and the difficulty of doing it through a translator, I think I will have understood about 30% of what has been said (which for someone with my little experience is a lot).

I would like to ask two very basic questions:
1.- Is BRouter in charge of designing the route between the beginning and the end of the route that I mark in Cruiser?
2.- If so, what parameters should I configure to choose between straight paths, curves or many curves?

Thank you very much and sorry for the inconvenience.

[devemux86]

@Cer-o please ask anything you want to know, we are all here to help!
You can also write in your language. 🙂

1. The re-routing in Cruiser does not change the routes.
   (it only calculates until the next waypoint)

2. To avoid main roads and use small back roads, please see the BRouter settings in the image below:
   (including the speed setting)