Novastar LED Controllers / TILED displays / Custom EDID

[eledtech1234]

Hi,

i don't know if its ok to ask here.
i am working with LED Screens, most with custom resolutions.
so i am wondering 2 things if its possible:

1. can betterdisplay force EDIDs like Nvidia Custom Resolutions in Nvidia Control Panel?
   For example the EDID of my LED Controller is 3840x2160 (which i can not change), but i wanna send a custom resolution of 5760x1344 for example. Betterdisplay can do this?

2. I saw in Display Overrides that there MTDD Files where some Monitors are "tile-based" with 2 cables.
   as mac (i am on mac studio ultra) can not handle Output Sync its impossible in standard setups to drive LED Displays with 7680x2160 Vsynced and there is always a tearing. i am wondering if this "TILE / Mosaic" in some MTDD files can be used and implented in BetterDisplay to create custom mosaics ?

Sorry for my english and if its not fine to ask here.

best erik

[waydabber]

Hi there,

1. On Intel Macs you can override the EDID and create custom timings, but on Apple Silicon Macs it does not seem to be possible. You are stuck with the timings that the display provides or you can use a programmable (hardware) EDID emulator with passthru to modify them. On Intel you have great tools like SwitchResX to add custom timings (or you can do it yourself if you are up to it with the proper overrides). I don't plan to add this a functionality to BetterDisplay until it is not supported on Apple Silicon Macs as I don't have an Intel Mac anymore to test.

2. This is an interesting question. I think you could use MTDD overrides for such purposes, but I did not really research the area and not exactly an expert on how to concort a proper MTDD override. I know that the overrides must correspond to the supported edids for the tiles provided by the display (so this would probably go hand in hand with the previous point?). But I don't know in depth how this works especially in terms of synchronizing scanning - whether it would work at all if we are actually talking about separate displays, would it solve the tearing issue or not - a single display with dual cable or MST (?) support probably has some hardware side support to process the data stream for the two tiles in tandem, make the result seamless and avoid tearing (?) - while with entirely separate displays this is not a given obviously.

But: I am not claiming to be a pro expert in these matters (that's why the many questionmarks... :)), I just delve into things that are relevant to the problem I want to solve and your question is beyond what I had to solve so far. :)

I'll convert this into a discussion. Let me know if you figured something out regarding this!

[eledtech1234]

Hi,

thanks for response.

i am on Apple Silicon too, so i am stucked at this custom resolutions as you described.

Hopefully apple will see the possibilities with their macs for Display Walls. The Studio is great for those installations, but with tearing due to unsynced outputs is not very usefull yet :(

About this Tile Thing. What i understoud so far, and what i see in windows NVIDA Quadro Cards is this:
when you output different screens on different outputs the frequency is not synced... but as soon you create a mosaic in quadro card (also in gaming cards is possible called multiply displays) the outputs are in sync. Their is not need of separated hardware.

i thought that too, that it would need a framesync hardware for single GPU Outputs, but its only needed for multi GPU Setups.

Thats why my hope and expecations about MTDD files is, that this Mosaic (and i can see this kind of descripted in that files) is just a software / driver thing to sync multiply outputs.

But yes, as we do not have the EDIDs and can not manipulate them somehow, we are stucked, i think.

anyway thanks for that great work so far... love the tool and looking forward for some cool things like NDI streams :)

good evening for you

[gerrylusk]

I am also in this business of live events and large LED screens. Our issues with Mac is the inability to create custom output resolutions and the EDID protocol used by many of these displays (as mentioned by the OP) is limited to 0-4095 values. 5760x1152@60, for example, fits on a single DP1.2 cable but can't be asked for by the display. As you've mentioned, SwitchResX can do this by making a Display Override file but this only works on Intel. Some displays use DisplayID instead of EDID but not many.

Another thing that almost works is using the Tiled Display Extension in a Display Override file to get two output connectors to work as one display. This would allow apps that only understand one monitor (like Keynote) to work across two outputs. Some apps can span outputs, but this doesn't mean that the framebuffers will always update in sync.

I mention all of this as there are many of us in the live event industry trying to use Mac and struggling with the lack of these capabilities. If it's at all possible to add these things, you certainly have an audience.
Thanks.

[waydabber]

Note: with the latest app version now you can override the EDID of a display on Apple Silicon.

[ectoplasmosis]

Incredible! Will be buying Pro licenses for our fleet. Any word on 'mosaic' mode/framelocking/synchronising multiple outputs?

[eledtech1234]

wow thank u very much :)
will test it right tomorrow :)

[MikeXtremeLED]

Nicee new release! Is there some information about the multiple frame sync output? For LED walls 😙

[waydabber]

Currently I am not sure how to achieve frame lock among multiple outputs on macOS. You can of course try making sure all outputs use exactly the same timing but that won't guarantee frame lock. I am not even sure this capability is available for Apple Silicon (maybe it could be achieved by going VRR + enable vsync and look for when the buffer is swapped and try to change the refresh rates in a way that after some frames, sync is synchronized among multiple outputs - but this would need a specific app support imho).

I am not into the LED panel world so excuse my ignorance, but I help out at a local video studio and I know we use external clock generators to sync feeds up among multiple devices (we use SDI and you guys probably don't). I understand that with a one-device scenario when all outputs are served by a single silicon, with the proper GPU support it should be possible or superior/simpler to sync things up internally, but are there no an external hardware solutions that can help with this?

[eledtech1234]

for apple silicon i dont know if its possible.
but on intel macs there are working 8k60p monitors using 2 displayport cables. monitor is splitted into 2 tiles. as there is no tearing this overrides seems to enable synced outputs.
i tried last 2 days designing edids with those tiles. create custom overrides. unfortnatly nothing works yet.
do you know if apple silicon can handle those multicable monitors? if so, it might work by override.

just a find out in windows world.
nvidia gaming cards sync outputs on one gpu by using surround mode. also in linux. maybe this „surround“ (like tiles) mode is somehow possible in macos.

[eledtech1234]

unfortnatly there is no external hardware for framelock gpu outputs. genlock sync is only working by pcie cards like blackmagic. but those output cards have massive latency and over thunderbolt its not possible to use more then 2 outputs due to bandwith. also no custom resolution :(

for led wall setups windows / nvidia gpus are the best, but the performance of video playback is beast on mac silicons. way more layers possible etc.

[waydabber]

Afaik nobody had luck with 8k60p displays on macOS (until the M2 Pro obviously) so I think the tiled approach we talked earlier does not work (?). But honestly I did not experiment with this at all. I have two identical test displays so I could try experiment with it and try to make them two tiles of a single display. I am sorry I can't be more helpful with this at the moment. I'll try to keep this stuff in mind and if I bump into something while trying to dig more undocumented stuff up, I'll let you guys know!

[gerrylusk]

Using an M1 MacBook Pro and a Sonnet TB3-to-dual-DP adapter, I've seen two locked outputs at the exact same resolution and refresh. This from two identical EDIDs. However, Millumin was not always in sync across the two outputs (although is was most of the time) and I suspect that it was not always writing to the two framebuffers in sync.
When using the tiled display extension to request that both outputs are one display, the two sides will certainly be in sync always. But getting the Mac to honor the tiled display extension and getting a device that can produce an EDID with this extension is problematic. Having software to override the EDID and set up a tiled display would be fantastic.

[eledtech1234]

yes if you could test things with 2 monitors would be great. this is exactly what we need in led walls. 2 led displayport led converters stitched together as one display in mac :)

anyway thanks alot

[ectoplasmosis]

I’ve got this working via DisplayID ‘tiled’ extension, along with custom timing descriptors.

Tested 7680x2160 and 7680x2304 via two DisplayPort connectors; both appear as a single display in MacOS. No tearing between outputs.

[ectoplasmosis]

It’s worth noting that MacOS Ventura is currently limited to 6144px wide/high across a single frame buffer. 7680px wide works with Monterey.

[eledtech1234]

are you on intel mac or m1/m2 ?
about 6144px, i found same out.
but mike tested on m2 with ventura, and there he could get 7680 again.

[eledtech1234]

thank you very much. will test it out tomorrow.

[ectoplasmosis]

Here are the two EDID files from the individual connectors (01 = left, 02 = right): https://.com/index.php/s/EHzT3wXBNRG5yME

They are identical, except for display names and tiled location descriptors.

[eledtech1234]

ahhh now i see my mistake in doing an edid file(s).
i throw same edid file with same tile location on each input of my analogway.
cant wait for tomorrow to check it out :)
wondering if its also possible to have
3 tiles horizontal with
6528x1536 each
to get
6528 x 4608 synced screen

[waydabber]

It seems like with M2 Pro/Max tiled 8K works:

#199 (reply in thread)

[ectoplasmosis]

After extensive testing, it appears as though there is a snag with this solution: I can only make it work when connected directly to a Barco E2.

When trying to emulate the tiled EDIDs via BetterDisplay, and connected to any other physical sink device, the Mac Studio does not respect the tiled DisplayID extension.

Has anyone got this working without a Barco E2/Analog Way Aquilon?

[waydabber]

Just to have some more info here on how to set it up for those who don't want to open an EDID editor:

Tile 1:

Tile 2:

(These are DisplayID extension blocks)

Also the EDID filesprovided by @ectoplasmosis as GitHub attachments (if the 4wallcloud.com file goes away in the future):

tiled_display_edids.zip

[eledtech1234]

Sad news on Analog Way RS4 and Alta200.
It doesnt work. mac will recognize 2 screens, not one combined.
Analog Way i informed already about it.
Now i am testing on Novastar H Series .

[eledtech1234]

Hi again,

some more testings.

Sonnettech Display Link DUAL DP works with TILED EDID on MAC STUDIO and Analog Way RS4

@ecto
can you let me know what cables are you using?
do you have Thunderbolt Dual DP Adapter? or going straight by 2 x USB-C to DP Cable?

thanks erik

[ectoplasmosis]

Any luck with your testing?

I haven’t been able to achieve anything over 300MHz tiled 2x1 outputs via HDMI; have exhausted my supply of adapters and cables.

7680x2160@30Hz 2x1 tiled works fine with various DP1.2 to HDMI adapters. 50/60Hz works, in that MacOS claims to be outputting at this refresh rate, but the MX2 HDMI matrix does not see a signal.

Club3D CAC-1080 allows a single connector with tiled EDID to successfully output at 3840x2160@60Hz, but when the second one is plugged in, the Mac flashes a pink screen, kernel panics and reboots.

It seems as though timings matter greatly when using tiled topology via HDMI adapters…

[eledtech1234]

received sonnetech dual dp adapter today. same problem, pink mac crash. edid in normal mode 2 x 4k working. but as soon tiled output the mac is cradhing.

i studied a little this adapters today… it seems startech is only one which support 8k 60p. all others only 5k/6k.

as you said an old tb dock from elgato with dp and hdmi output, i could get 30p in all resolutions, but as soon 50p/60p freezing mac too, when tiling the display.

i ordered the startech adapter (2 weeks deliver time) :( hope that its working.

this displaylink adapter for 59 euro from sonnet is working well even in custom resolutions. not crashing, no timing issue. each output 600mhz at 4992x1728x60p per output. weird.

[ectoplasmosis]

Thanks for the update. Are you using native DP1.2 cables to DP1.2 connectors on the RS4 via the Sonnet TB3 dual adapter?

When I plug my Startech TB3 dual adapter via native DP1.2 to DP1.2 to a Barco E2 with tiled topology, it works perfectly first time every time, at 60Hz up to 7680x2304. No crashing or flashing, just works. Mac detects single display at 7680x2304@60Hz over two connectors and Barco sees the signal.

It’s only when trying to use any combination of cables/adapters to convert to HDMI, when I’m seeing either no sync on the destination device (Lightware matrix), or hard Mac crash…

[eledtech1234]

i am using 2 cables dp 1.2. in any setting with tiles its crashing the mac. also changed cables, same problem.
with this sonnet i didnt tried 30p yet.

with my other tb dock, i use one hdmi cable and one cable dp to hdmi (converter integrated / amazon thing)

[ectoplasmosis]

Have you tried emulating the EDIDs that I shared, read directly from the Barco E2?

As I mentioned, connecting directly to E2 works perfectly, tiled 7680x2304@60Hz…

[eledtech1234]

yes i tried your edids. on sonnettech tb dual adapter mac crash. i ordered the startech and an owc adapter. i will report then too :)

[ectoplasmosis]

Can you try editing those EDIDs to set a combined tiled resolution equal to or lower than 6144px wide? E.g. 3072x2160 per connector.

I’m away for a couple of weeks so cannot test further…

[eledtech1234]

yes i already created a few edids working on this displaylink adapter (limitation with this adapter is 5120wide)
some working edids:
2 x 2560x1600 = 5120 x 1600
2 x 2560x2160 = 5120 x 2160
2 x 4992x1728 = 4992 x 3456
2 x 3072 x 2160 = 3072 x 4320
2 x 3840 x 2160 = 3840 x 4320
2 x 2400 x 2400 = 4800 x 2400

i expect with startech it is more possible due to wide of 7680 (monterey) / 6144 (ventura) at max.

[ectoplasmosis]

Thanks. I meant trying sub-6144 wide at 60Hz via your Sonnet dual DP adapter; I’m thinking that maybe there is a hardware bug in M1 Pro/Max/Ultra, meaning that tiled >6144 resolutions cause a crash in certain circumstances, which is a possible reason for Apple limiting the frame buffer from 7680 to 6144 in Ventura.

Although I wonder why I have no problem with 7680x2304@60Hz tiled via Barco E2…

[ectoplasmosis]

There is also another user who has 6144x2160@60Hz working on Mac Studio via a Cable Matters TB3 dual DP1.2 adapter, which is the same as your Sonnet…

So if you could try with this resolution via your Sonnet, maybe this will work.

[eledtech1234]

i also tried it. any resolution (with tile typology) crashs all my macs with this adapter.

[eledtech1234]

some updates:
sonnettech and owc thubderbolt to dual dp1.4
following modes:

m1max ventura:
2x 2560x1600 (5120x1600) works
2 x 3072x2304 (6144x2304) works
2 x 3072x2688 (6144x2688) works
2 x 3072x3072 (6144x3072) not working
2 x 3072x3456 (6144x3466) works
2 x 3072x3840 (6144x3840) works
2 x 6144x1152 (6144x2304) not working
2 x 6144x1344 (6144x2688) not working

conclusion:
all over 3072 width (6144 in framebuffer not working)
vertical tiles not working
horizontal tiles working

first tests in monterey:
2 x 3840x2304 (7680x2304) display is recognized
but it has glitches and image is completely wrong, like 4 tiles with wrong positions
2 x 2560x1600 (5120x1600) is working. and this mode seems only working mode, no glitches, position errors

this results happen with both adapters (startech one not received yet)

i am wondering, that gpu can not create tiles verticaly, because display link adapter can do.
for example 2 x 4992x1728 (4992x3456) is working well.

i wish i could do vertical tiles, as it handles better in my analogway (half half background)

in this working modes under ventura i need 4 outputs in the end to place the backgrounds correct. otherwise i can use 2 outputs but need need to use 4 cropped layers as background.

will report after startech arrived.

waydabber: maybe you could look into framebuffer somehow? i dont know how you resolve the edid thing, but as you could override edid, maybe you could override framebuffers or accepting tile modes?

thanks and best erik

[eledtech1234]

[eledtech1234]

[ectoplasmosis]

my mac still crashs when i build my own EDID from ground of. when i use your edid and edit them its working.

This is strange, have you checked to figure out what the difference is between my EDIDs and the ones you made?

[Palmer86]

Hello eledtech1234
First of all, thank you very much for all this contribution, it is a great contribution to the community.
I have a mac m2pro with sonomoa.

To get 4 exits, how did you do it?

I can't make a mosaic and have it output through 2 video outputs.

thank you so much

[kman1898]

You will not get 4 synced outputs. The max is 2

[eledtech1234]

to be honest, i didnt check deep enough the differences yet.
but i saw for example one difference.

for example i use your edid and just change the resolution and the time frequency to 3072x2688 to get 60p. your file is working.

when i build this my self with edid editor it gives me different timing values (fork etc)
maybe thats the problem, that the timings matter for mac?

[ectoplasmosis]

Interesting. Can you try creating your own EDID from scratch, but replicating the exact timing values from my EDIDs?

[eledtech1234]

Some more updates.
arrived:
Startech Dual DP. 1.4 Adapter and
M2 Pro Macbook with Ventura.

also i can not get working Tiled Resolutions over 6144 in total width.
all below 3072 (6144) are working.
So its not possible to get 7680x2160(2304).

So it seems that all Adapters are working equal.

interesting is following:
Custom Resolution 7680x1080 (60p) (not tiled)

MACBOOK/MAC Studio M1 Max working under Monterey
MACBOOK/MAC Studio M1 Max not working under Ventura (limit of 6144 width)
MACBOOK M2 Pro/Max working under Ventura

Custom Resolution 7680x2160 (30p) (not tiled)

MACBOOK/MAC Studio M1 Max working under Monterey
MACBOOK/MAC Studio M1 Max not working under Ventura (limit of 6144 width)
MACBOOK M2 Pro/Max working under Ventura

[ectoplasmosis]

Thank you for the M2 Pro test results!

Does this mean that even with M2 Pro, you cannot get working tiled output over 6144px wide? What happens when you try 7680-wide with M2 Pro?

[eledtech1234]

single display 7680 x XXX is working on m2pro.
but tiled its not recognizing pixel size over 6144 (2x3072)

[BWD808]

eledtech1234
I'm trying to do something similar (7680x1080@30) with a MacBook Pro M2 Max running Ventura and a Gen1 E2 with TriCombo input cards. I've tried making a custom EDID for the TriCombo input cards DP input using V1 and V2 reduced blanking and Display ID off, but the MacBook Pro M2 limits at 4096 wide like mentioned above.
If I have the thread right your made this work with an AnalogWay product or was it straight to the LED processor?
For your single Display 7680 x xxxx what cable or adapter did you use (The Startech 1.4 but only one output)? Did you use Better Display to force the resolution?

Last, how and where do you create a Tiled display in Mac OS (even though you said it didn't work for 7680 wide I'd like to learn how for smaller resolutions)?

Thanks!

[eledtech1234]

are you using hdmi cable?
i can do custom resolutions over 4096 only with displayport cables (for single output i use usbc-dp cable1.4)

here in thread is shown how to do custom edid for tiled displays. also some to download.

download: analoway edid editor

[BWD808]

I am testing with USB C to DP 1.4 (8K@60) cables from UNI, Cable Matters, and off name brand.
Thanks for the reminder about the AW EDID editor.

[IanTGreenwood]

Hi all, @waydabber told me i should post this here and maybe one of you can help out?

I can't seem to get it to work for creating custom resolutions 4080x1020 for an external physical display (barco e2). I've tried both creating a dummy, and mirroring the output to that, as well as changing the native panel config for the display. Can anyone help me out? TIA!

[eledtech1234]

you need pro version of better display for use custom edid files.
ps: an edid file contains resolution and timing infos (and much more). on a mac with apple silicon we are not able to create custom resolutions in a simple way (like nvidia on pc). so we need to create an edid file.

this analogway edid editor has a easy wizard mode ;)

[BWD808]

Ian, I know for the E2 the Width of the resolution needs to be divisible by 8. I'm not sure if the vertical does as well.
Could you try 4080x1024 as a custom resolution on a Display Port input with the E2?

[IanTGreenwood]

This is purely academic at this point. i'm using e2 edids for 4080x1020 on both HDMI and DP inputs of a TCI card. the GS is currently in breakout mode, so i'm using the time to get to the bottom of this.

Just tried the EDID method and it worked. Thanks! But I thought it was possible to do via creating a dummy and mirroring it. Or was I mistaken?

[eledtech1234]

not possible with dumm or mirror. this is only for virtual scaled resolutions

[IanTGreenwood]

Thanks for the clarification!

[VJ-Katza]

Hello, Just bought the product to allow easy & fast resolution switching and more.
I was wondering if it would also be able to solve a problem I have with a brand new M2.
I am a VJ and have to connect to many LED walls.
Some Led Cards (NovaStar) are getting a pink tint when I connect my Notebook to it via the Macbook's HDMI port.
To my understandings The macbook sends by default YPbPr instead of RGB.
Can this tool help me with color conversion?
Thanks

[vkedwardli]

Easiest way would be plugging it into the DVI port.
But yes, you can override the EDID with BetterDisplay to make it always use Full Range RGB mode.

[kman1898]

@vkedwardli are you speaking of the method in which you edit the EDID to only have RGB enabled? Or something else? As I just tried it on a show site and it was still YCbCr

[vkedwardli]

@kman1898 yes it is possible to remove all YCbCr mode in the EDID and make macOS to output RGB mode for HDMI output

[kman1898]

Yes I know it’s possible but it didn’t work on the show I was on when I made the comment. Not sure what the issue was to be honest

[VJ-Katza]

Thank you for your quick reply, The problem with DVI is the maximum resolution. Is there a quick tutorial or explanation about how to override EDID? ‫בתאריך יום ב׳, 24 באפר׳ 2023 ב-13:23 מאת ‪vkedwardli‬‏ <‪ ***@***.***‬‏>:‬

…

Easiest way would be plugging it into the DVI port. But yes, you can override the EDID with BetterDisplay to make it always use Full Range RGB mode. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#713 (reply in thread)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABT5LFDTHYQPTHXOE7XLTRTXCZIA5ANCNFSM5ZNXODAQ> . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: ***@***.***>

-- *בברכה,* *יאיר כצנלסון* *אקטיב הפקות - VJ Katza* נייד: 054-6805600 דוא"ל: ***@***.***

[vkedwardli]

Before #1504 is implemented, you would need:

• Export the original EDID
• Use AW EDID Editor to edit the EDID to make it RGB only
• Apply the edited EDID file

p.s. Usually I don't have problem with Novastar MCTRL4K or MCTRL1600 which exceeds the DVI resolution so such modification is not needed

[kman1898]

Hey everyone,

thanks for the great work on this sync/tiled screen. Waydabber pointed me in your direction since you all have worked extensively with e2’s and more.

I’m trying to run m2 Mac Pro to an e2 and their edid is set to 59.94 and all I see is 60. Is there a way to do 59.94, 29.97 or 23.98? Or will I need to go to the edid editor? I’m just curious as to why it’s not defaulting to the edid the e2 is sending.

[kman1898]

Well the E2 and better display menu. The E2 showed I was sending 60 and the mac did as well despite the E2 edid being set to 59.94

[vkedwardli]

Relavant discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/VIDEOENGINEERING/comments/zegygz/mac_display_issues_with_decimators/

I guess it is best to use BetterDisplay, if it can help you to lock 59.94Hz

[kman1898]

Yeah but I’m using betterdisplay and am not given them option for 59.94 or the other resolutions I mentioned.

[kman1898]

Anything to add on this @waydabber ? Still curious if there will ever be a 23.9, 29.9 and 59.9 resolution added to BD.

[kman1898]

m2max works with 7680x1080 / 1200 by custom edids. this dual output „workaround“ is very strange on m2max. its working with 3840x4320@30p per tile and gives a synced screen 7680x4320@30p.

unfortnatly i can not get it to work with 2 tiles each 3840x2160@60p. tiled displays seems not going over 6144 wide at 50/60p.

i expect there is something hardcoded in framebuffer driver.

@vkedwardli Also do you have a complete list of all dongles that you’ve gotten to work with the M2 pro Max?

[kman1898]

Any updates on if Sonoma can go wider than ~6k wide?

[waydabber]

No, on the entry level M1/M2 it can't.

[kman1898]

What about the m2 Pro max?

[eledtech1234]

m2max works with 7680x1080 / 1200 by custom edids.
this dual output „workaround“ is very strange on m2max.
its working with 3840x4320@30p per tile and gives a synced screen 7680x4320@30p.

unfortnatly i can not get it to work with 2 tiles each 3840x2160@60p.
tiled displays seems not going over 6144 wide at 50/60p.

i expect there is something hardcoded in framebuffer driver.

[kman1898]

Good to know. And this is on Sonoma or Ventura?

[eledtech1234]

sonoma

[kman1898]

Does someone mind walking me through how to go about setting up this tiling in an edid editor as well as how to apply it? I’m having trouble and a bit confused.