Dev meeting 2016 08 02

Agenda

• [bolt/docs] [RFC] Set Recommended Sizes for extension store visual assets [#456] (https://github.com/bolt/docs/issues/456)
• Backend customisation/styling
• Documentation for the code, or 'how to make Bob feel less lost in the ever-expanding codebase'.
• Status of the '3.1 beta' (blockers? Who's responsible for the Changelog?)

Actionable Items

Log

<gawainlynch> ping Bopp carsonfull gawainlynch phillipp rarila rixbeck rossriley slick0 
<Bopp> pong
<phillipp> pong pong
<gawainlynch> We had SahAssar typing away in Slack a few seconds ago … I know you're out there :-P
<SahAssar> pong!
<gawainlynch> Hahah
* SahAssar thinks I should get different identities for different networks though
<gawainlynch> OK… let's get cracking
<Bopp> Small group :-)
<SahAssar> Also, second week you didn't ping me in the reminder :D
<gawainlynch> Yeah, rossriley and rarila tend to show up later :-D
<gawainlynch> — Status of the '3.1 beta' (blockers? Who's responsible for the Changelog?)
<gawainlynch> #5574
-[BoltIssueBall]/#boltcms- #5574 [open] [Tracker] Bolt 3.1 Release Blocking Issues https://github.com/bolt/bolt/issues/5574 
<Bopp> As discussed this afternoon, i'll happily keep handling the releases..
<gawainlynch> Yep, I've been trying to get done with merges
<Bopp> but for the first beta, I'd think it's best if Gawain compiles the changelog, for once.
<gawainlynch> So the two that are there in the tracker, I am not sure they qualify as blockers for beta
<gawainlynch> 1st one is in 3.0, and I think the second might be too
<SahAssar> #5601 is the big one on there, right?
-[BoltIssueBall]/#boltcms- #5601 [open] [BUG] contenttypes and underscores https://github.com/bolt/bolt/issues/5601 
<Bopp> We have #5574 
-[BoltIssueBall]/#boltcms- #5574 [open] [Tracker] Bolt 3.1 Release Blocking Issues https://github.com/bolt/bolt/issues/5574 
<Bopp> derp
<gawainlynch> OK… so anyone objecting to beta?
<Bopp> well, 3.1 will handle underscores / hyphens better than 3.0 already.
<gawainlynch> True, very true :-)
<Bopp> would be good to have it sorted for 3.1.0 though.
<Bopp> but, it's not stopping a beta. 
<gawainlynch> ^W^W^W^W^W
<gawainlynch> — Backend customisation/styling
<Bopp> About the "install different version", one thing. 
<Bopp> is that feature needed? I think i've _never_ wanted to install anything other than either "latest stable" or "latest dev-master" 
<gawainlynch> It is the only thing I ever use the UI for
<gawainlynch> …and sometimes people need to downgrade a version
<Bopp> ok
<phillipp> are we talking about extension installation via backend?
<Bopp> yes
<gawainlynch> Yeah
<phillipp> ah ok
<SahAssar> So it's a quicker way to do the same as uninstall, and reinstall different version, right?
<gawainlynch> Styling… OK, so bringing this up, as to no end it keeps coming up in various channels … Bopp what is your forward path on this?
<Bopp> I need to reserve a decent chunk of time to sit down, 
<Bopp> deconstruct the current styling into functional and 'decoration' 
<Bopp> rip out BS3
<Bopp> add BS4
<Bopp> fix _everything_ for 4.
<gawainlynch> So 5 minutes work, right?
<phillipp> yeah updating BS3 to BS4 is not funny
<Bopp> Do some refinements, where needed.
<Bopp> make something so that it's feasible to replace the 'decoration' css for another one. 
<gawainlynch> Is it something you want to collaborate on, or a one-person approach?
<Bopp> The first part will be very much a one-person job
<Bopp> once it's time to do refinements, i'd like one or two (designer-type) people to help.
<phillipp> Bopp: one question. have you planned to swap out the standard bolt decoration css for a custom decoration css or have the ability to just load another one so styles can inherit?
<Bopp> what we will _not_ do, is make it a group effort. Design by committee is not going to happen
<Bopp> phillipp: Something in between, i bet. 
<gawainlynch> But you can do it in a different red, like blue, right?
<SahAssar> Just make it pop. ;)
<phillipp> Bopp: ok, would be nice to have the ability to just do some tweaks without copying the whole standard decoration css
<Bopp> phillipp: once the deconstruction is done, we can see how far we are comfortable taking the customization
<phillipp> Bopp: ok, ping me any time when you need some second thoughts :)
<Bopp> Sure things 
<phillipp> cool
<gawainlynch> SahAssar: How's life is Land of the Giant Issues?
<Bopp> one more thing.. 
<SahAssar> gawainlynch Still too high a mountain. A bit better since last time though.
<Bopp> I am also explicitly _not_ looking for a complete overhaul.. It makes absolutely no sense to throw away what we have been working on for four years, and replace it with something shiny-but-pointless
<gawainlynch> SahAssar: Yeah, numbers seem to be dropping again … just curious if you have flags to raise, etc?
<phillipp> Bopp: nobody in core said that :) i am all for keeping our current backend style
<SahAssar> But, we will actually need other core members to jump in and take or close issues assigned to them to get it to "good enough" levels again. Much of this is outside of my scope/knowledge, so I try to assign more issues now than before.
<SahAssar> And by good enough I mean ~100
<SahAssar> And I get that everyone is stressed, has a lot of other things going on, but ~130 is way too many.
<Bopp> phillipp: I know nobody in core wants that.. It's just that you sometimes see people saying "Bolt should use this! and they post a screenshot of a random dashboard theme with nothing but graphs, gauges and pie charts."
<gawainlynch> SahAssar: Yeah, one of the reasons the next three branches out of the way, it will make debugging these issues *much* easier for people like us
<Bopp> I'd like to be able to help out more on those too, in the near future.
<gawainlynch> SahAssar: Not stressed here … but I do have stores to tell ;-)
<phillipp> Bopp: when we have the ability to override the decoration styles. people can do everything they want in combination with backend widgets. so we should be fine out of that
<gawainlynch> — Set Recommended Sizes for extension store visual assets #456 — https://github.com/bolt/docs/issues/456
<gawainlynch> Another one for the visual people …
-[BoltIssueBall]/#boltcms- #456 [closed] Base theme undefined and empty variable checks in clean install https://github.com/bolt/bolt/pull/456 
<gawainlynch> Welcome back, [BoltIssueBall] 
<SahAssar> Basically, if I assign an issue, that means take a quick look, if it does not seem like your thing or you don't have time, deassign it, and post a comment. Or close it if it isn't something that needs getting done.
<phillipp> gawainlynch: i wanted to go over the latest recommendation for the text and would give feedback
<gawainlynch> phillipp: Awesome … leave it with you two then
<gawainlynch> SahAssar: BTW … I don't think I am getting notifications if you're assigning them to me
<phillipp> gawainlynch: i also try to find the time to make PRs to most of all themes to fix the screenshot sizes in favor of store page size
<SahAssar> gawainlynch: I usually post a comment saying that I assigned it to fix that...
<gawainlynch> SahAssar: But I think your stated approach above is probably what we should put in the "process"
<gawainlynch> SahAssar: Ah, those I get :-)
<gawainlynch> phillipp: That'd be awesome mate 
<SahAssar> gawainlynch: Yeah, I'll type something up to put in the wiki
<gawainlynch> #karma SahAssar
<[BoltIssueBall]> Sorry but karma can only be added for channel members, SahAssar isn't here and they lose out!
<SahAssar> :D
<Bopp> huh?
<phillipp> lol
<phillipp> are we in slack?
<phillipp> :D
<gawainlynch> Erm
<Bopp> #karma SahAssar
<gawainlynch> Haha
<[BoltIssueBall]> BoltKarma for SahAssar is now 145
<Bopp> haha
<phillipp> weird
<phillipp> bot still tired
<gawainlynch> Ah, I restarted the bot and the array of names would be empty 
<gawainlynch> Anyway … Bopp 
<gawainlynch> — Documentation for the code, or 'how to make Bob feel less lost in the ever-expanding codebase'.
<SahAssar> testkarma gets me the same value as real karma in the boltstore :)
<gawainlynch> #karma SahAssar
<[BoltIssueBall]> BoltKarma for SahAssar is now 146
<gawainlynch> Thar we goes
<SahAssar> btw, my name can be added to that "lost-list" too.
<gawainlynch> Bopp: On that last one, neither rossriley nor carsonfull are here yet
<Bopp> Myes
<gawainlynch> OK, anything to add?
<Bopp> I _really_ think we should work on making our code more accessible, 
<SahAssar> I have gotten more familiar with it, but the lack of docs is getting in the way for fixing some stuff.
<Bopp> so that other people can actually help out, if they want. 
<gawainlynch> Yes, I agree with both of you
<gawainlynch> I need more hours in my day, honestly :-(
<Bopp> I think we should do the "snow leopard" thing for 3.2, to be honest. 
<SahAssar> Also, there are some oddities, like IIRC legacy storage is still used for ajax on the backend, but not for actual requests?
<Bopp> No features, no improvements.. 
<gawainlynch> Bopp: I know that was a version of OSX, but that's it
<Bopp> just fixes, documentation (inernal and external) and focus on that solely. 
<SahAssar> :+1: for that
<Bopp> as in, opposed to getting carried away with new features and/or (needed) refactorings.
<gawainlynch> So is the stuff I am working on feature or fix?
<Bopp> i'd say fix. 
<Bopp> but it'd be good if we actually stated this intention, instead of just rolling with it. 
<gawainlynch> Just so we are clear, if we go that path you'll still hear me referring to them as "features" as they as too large a delta for a patch release type approach 
<gawainlynch> But I am not (yet) convinced
<Bopp> I don't mind if we do this for 1, 2 or 3 0.1 releases.. 
<SahAssar> gawainlynch: Isn't a feature based on dev/user UX rather than the size of the patch?
<Bopp> I just think it'd be good to focus on that for a bit. 
<Bopp> thing is, currently i am useless when it comes to working in the bolt codebase
<Bopp> And i don't see that changing anytime soon, unless there's documentation or some guide to it. 
<Bopp> I'm more than willing to help type out stuff, but I can't document what I don't understand. 
<gawainlynch> SahAssar: The problem that comes in is that, sure we need to document the code base, but so much of it is in flux … that we'd waste a release cycle that we could be getting stuff in order to write docs for code that only going to change signficiantly in the next release 
<SahAssar> Besides the whole internal process, there are also fully undocumented features of bolt that are very, very awesome that extension devs don't see. Like the FS.
<gawainlynch> I am wondering if a better solution in the short term is to have a workshop on Skype/Hangouts/Whatever
<gawainlynch> Try to get you all up to a better speed
<gawainlynch> I personally have no objection to writing docs, but I am trying to best budget my time here as I am not seeing buy in from others :-)
<gawainlynch> RL and all
<gawainlynch> (in their case I meant)
<gawainlynch> Have I mentioned how much I "love" my ISP
<Bopp> perhaps. 
<SahAssar> gawainlynch: If that's how it pans out, sure it sounds great. But getting a dev to write docs is herding cats usually. So I think we really need to have a cycle where the stated mission is to stabilize and document. If it's this one, or one soon, fine, but our docs are lacking currently.
<Bopp> It's a shame that Ross, Carson and Rarila aren't here, because the very same applies to their code.
<Bopp> the jungle that is Javascript 'buic'
<Bopp> Magic in sessions and session handlers
<Bopp> the black box that is the new Storage
<SahAssar> Actually, the new storage is probably the one I looked at most. And that one has docs, although not exhaustive (which they will never be).
<phillipp> SahAssar: i had my hands very deep into the storage stuff :D
<gawainlynch> Yeah, I am sorry … but guys, you're programmers … some times it is just about reading the code
<Bopp> gawainlynch: Do you have major things on your plate bolt-wise after the Exceptions stuff is done? 
<SahAssar> gawainlynch: Btw, nothing that I said was aimed at you or your code. Just in general that we need better docs.
<phillipp> actually, the storage stuff is easy to read in the code. cant say anything about filesystem, though
<gawainlynch> phillipp: FS is pretty easy
<Bopp> gawainlynch: maybe i'm not good enough, because there's so many things i can't follow in the code.
<phillipp> ok, i wont do this troll now :D
<gawainlynch> Bopp: No, I don't quite get why you specifically are struggling … I have been thinking it over quite a bit recently 
<gawainlynch> I mean I get you're struggling :-)
<gawainlynch> But the classes are heavily PHPDoced now, nearly everything "click though" in an IDE
<Bopp> yeah, PHPstorm lets me click from one place to the other. 
<gawainlynch> You can get useful trace data from Xdebug sessions
<Bopp> but I just can't get my head around _why_ nine out of ten times
<SahAssar> Look, just reading the code is fine in certain situations, but if core members (like myself) who spent quite a bit of time on this project are struggling we might need to at least think about it. Cause fututre members/contributors will probably face the same or worse in that case.
<phillipp> Bopp: would it help, as quick solution, when you write down when something is unclear and we try to get answers for you?
<gawainlynch> SahAssar: Yes mate, and I am not having a dig at you either … but the thing is that we currently have a deficit of human resources right now … so we need to make a choice about where time is spent more carefully … I just don't have more hours in my day
<SahAssar> We should also consider that the better docs we have, the more/better extensions we get.
<Bopp> gawainlynch: Do you have major things on your plate bolt-wise after the Exceptions stuff is done?
<gawainlynch> My point being it would be lovely if you all could drop down in docs what you find as you go, and I'll work to build on that
<phillipp> SahAssar: are you still on the boat for the docs review/clean up in 3 weeks?
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Getting to that :-D
<SahAssar> phillipp: I thought that was when I'd do the config reshuffle :D
<Bopp> Carson promised he'd make a diagram of how the entire request-response cycle works currently.. 
<Bopp> I'm sure that'd help
<Bopp> To give an example of the stuff i don't get.. 
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Yes, but again … "what counts" … ResourceManger & Config are the two biggies … but before I start on those, I want to get BoltForms our, Members out, and Payments in a better state
<phillipp> SahAssar: docs should take one day or so :)
<Bopp> in the backend controller, there's an `->action()` that triggers the Save::action() for a record. 
<Bopp> somehow, magically, all the things are done for all seperate fields in that records. 
<phillipp> SahAssar: i can also help you with the config then
<Bopp> I can (using ack) find the location of that code, but i have no clue whatsoever _why_ this is happening, or what is causing it
<gawainlynch> Bopp: You do realise that is all just the logical flow of the old Backend::editContent()
<Bopp> yes, i do, but there's this huge disconnect in my head between what happens in Save.php, and (for example) Storage/Field/Type/HtmlType.php
<gawainlynch> Yeah, 'cause I haven't had the time to to an SRP pass on it
<Bopp> I don't understand
<Bopp> Anyhow, we can keep discussing this for hours, but I don't think this is something we can solve right now. 
<gawainlynch> HtmlType is a simple, small, limited (hopefully single) function class … editContent() was 400 lines of nested and convoluted logic that took a 90 hour coding week to break out just into separate functions
<gawainlynch> Those classes are step two
<Bopp> I just wanted to raise it again, because it remains a big issue to me, and I think it's a real catch-22. 
<gawainlynch> I know it is, and it is also an issue for me … we're all stakeholders
<gawainlynch> All concerns I have heard tonight are valid
<Bopp> That's the hard part or me, HtmlType.php and FieldTypeBase.php by itself are pretty straightforward and easy to understand. 
<gawainlynch> But … what would help to get things in a better state is people "dumping" (into a docs branch even) some commits to get things expanding
<Bopp> I just can't get my head around how they're all connected to eachother
<Bopp> I'd gladly do that, but i'm not sure how i'd do that.
<gawainlynch> They're pretty simple in essence … a request in that domain is either going to be editing, saving, or listing … so the start of the breakdown 
<gawainlynch> One of the problems with those classes, was that was the point that we hit the templatefiles, relations, and taxonomy problems too
<gawainlynch> So things also stayed frozen for a while
<gawainlynch> …plus one of the next things is the form handling so we don't do it all
<gawainlynch> I know, roadmap :-)
<rarila> Oh, sorry, I'm here now. Can we start all over again? ;-)
<gawainlynch> #karma rarila 
<[BoltIssueBall]> BoltKarma for rarila is now 150
<gawainlynch> Anyway … SahAssar, the honours are all yours
<SahAssar> rarila: Sure, so I was born in a small city in southern sweden....