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Dev meeting 2016 09 27

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Svante Richter edited this page Sep 27, 2016 · 21 revisions

Agenda

e.g.

  • Status on drop bear invasion (@YourGitHubID)

Actionable Items

  • Add "due for close" tag to tracker (@SahAssar)

Outcomes

Log

While we're waiting… Closing older inactive PRs (@gawainlynch) #5257 #5272 #5531 #5560
boltissueball [7:37 PM] #5257 [open] [BUG] Wrong sorting in ArrayHandler::orderHelper() https://github.com/bolt/bolt/pull/5257
[7:37] #5272 [open] [BUG] Wrong sorting in ArrayHandler::orderHelper() in v3 https://github.com/bolt/bolt/pull/5272
[7:37] #5531 [open] Don't hide viewless from backend omnisearch https://github.com/bolt/bolt/pull/5531
[7:37] #5560 [open] [WIP] Test Reorganization https://github.com/bolt/bolt/pull/5560
gawainlynch [7:37 PM] Thoughts?
bob [7:37 PM] The PHP FIG uses a mailing list, and they’re doing swell.
phillipp [7:37 PM] @gawainlynch saw your message in IRC. i stop my DOS attack against freenode now :troll:
jkazimir [7:37 PM] @bob Hahaha
sahassar [7:37 PM] #5531 seems like something we should do, and I'm just guessing that fixing the remaining issue isn't hard
boltissueball [7:37 PM] #5531 [open] Don't hide viewless from backend omnisearch https://github.com/bolt/bolt/pull/5531
gawainlynch [7:37 PM] The first two I wanted to ask on IRC, but Rix can't get in anyway
bob [7:38 PM] @phillipp You use a web browser to get onto IRC.. You wouldn’t even know where to point the botnet at.
[7:38] Anyone heard from rarila today?
phillipp [7:38 PM] @bob you my friend, are not nice to me today :smile:
gawainlynch [7:38 PM] sahassar: Yeah, kinda feel that way too … but Jan is falling behind and something/someone needs to bring it over the line
sahassar [7:38 PM] also uses a web browser for IRC... :slightly_smiling_face:
gawainlynch [7:38 PM] Yeah, he was on IRC most of the day (edited)
bob [7:39 PM] Let’s do it on slack, right here.
gawainlynch [7:39 PM] But I am not here :stuck_out_tongue:
bob [7:39 PM] :hammer:
gawainlynch [7:39 PM] OK … so mentioned issues? (other than Svante's last point) (edited)
bob [7:40 PM] We should add a ‘due for closing’ label to them.
sahassar [7:40 PM] Yeaaah... I've been busy with non bolt stuff... Sorry bout that. I noticed that bob has handled some of it, but I need to push them back under 100 again.
bob [7:40 PM] :troll:
gawainlynch [7:41 PM] sahassar: You never need to say sorry for having RL :slightly_smiling_face:
[7:41] I was more thinking the ones I linked
[7:41] …but sahassar we have a question on issue mgt soon too
[7:42] OK … I'll try to liase with the authors then
[7:42] Next
[7:42] Certificates on *.bolt.cm (@bob)
bob [7:42 PM] ok, that’s me!
[7:42] working on a wildcard.
[7:42] We’ll probably get one sponsored, soon.
gawainlynch [7:42 PM] Google is holding us back FWIW
bob [7:43 PM] which should allow us to get everything up and running for the time being.
sahassar [7:43 PM] My question is, do we need one? LE can handle 50+ on a SAN, right?
phillipp [7:43 PM] have you seen what sahassar linked this morning?
gawainlynch [7:43 PM] sahassar: 6
bob [7:43 PM] currently, news.bolt.cm and www.bolt.cm are broken
sahassar [7:44 PM] gawainlynch: 100 according to https://community.letsencrypt.org/t/limit-on-number-of-domain-in-san/3166
 Let's Encrypt Community Support
Limit on number of domain in SAN
is there a limit on the number of domains for a SAN? a friend of mine who is in the beta experienced some issues creating a SAN with 4 domains, but when he put the rest again in another cert it weirdly worked for him... 
gawainlynch [7:44 PM] ACME will come a long way over time … but it is a broken pile of shit right now
sahassar [7:45 PM] I get that you had issues with it, but I really think that is either the client or how we are approaching this. I have issues SANs with 30-ish domains, so we shouldn't have a limit that is related to LE or the protcol.
gawainlynch [7:45 PM] sahassar: I don't have th debug log, but the command will be in history on the server
[7:45] …and the last one was SAN … it registered 6 and then failed on 7
[7:46] Happy to hear I got it wrong … but
sahassar [7:46 PM] Right, priority is getting the sites up.
gawainlynch [7:46 PM] Yeah … happy to look at this over time when it's "relaxed" time frames
sahassar [7:46 PM] As long as we don't use startcom or woosign.
bob [7:47 PM] yeah, i’ll get us a nice wildcard cert, we get everything up,
gawainlynch [7:47 PM] TBH … I'd *really* love it if we were using ACME … but ugh
bob [7:47 PM] and then over x-mas break when we have nothing to do, we’ll sort it out properly.
gawainlynch [7:47 PM] Using ACME for our sites is good advertising (edited)
sahassar [7:48 PM] bob: I'm guessing you use Comodo, right?
gawainlynch [7:48 PM] Just really frustrated that Bob & I can do an SSL seconds in 15 seconds (today) … but this has been going on for months with ACME
[7:48] …with no result
sahassar [7:48 PM] Cause if we are thinking of PR value too we should stay away from comodo
[7:49] (not that I think even 5 people care)
gawainlynch [7:49 PM] It's "affordable" right now :slightly_smiling_face:
phillipp [7:50 PM] dont we need those crazy 2500€ wildcard certs? :troll:
bob [7:50 PM] sahassar I can pick from these.
[7:50] https://www.sslcertificaten.nl/SSLCertificaten#OV_Wildcard_1
 sslcertificaten.nl
SSL Certificaten vergelijken
Bekijk de mogelijkheden en vergelijk SSL certificaten 
sahassar [7:50 PM] Right, if we could not use symantec or comodo that'd be awesome :slightly_smiling_face:
gawainlynch [7:51 PM] WFM
bob [7:51 PM] can you ELI5 what is wrong with comodo?
sahassar [7:51 PM] bob: They tried to strongarm away the Lets encrypt brand from Lets encrypt
[7:51] After it was launched
bob [7:51 PM] ah, right. that’s shitty
gawainlynch [7:51 PM] That was trademark though, wasn't it? (edited)
phillipp [7:52 PM] throws the word "drupal" into the channel :smile:
gawainlynch [7:52 PM] throws the word "blade" into the channel
phillipp [7:52 PM] nice try
jkazimir [7:52 PM] throws the word "facade" into the channel (edited)
phillipp [7:52 PM] won't react
sahassar [7:53 PM] gawainlynch: On very shady grounds and deliberately delayed until after launch IIRC, but anyway, for a lot of people the name carries a certain stink anyway.
gawainlynch [7:53 PM] OK
[7:53] So … moving on
[7:53] Should we add a Due for closing tag to the Issue Tracker, to keep track of issues that we're going to close soon-ish, if there is no progress/feedback on them? (@bob)
bob [7:53 PM] Noted, I’ll go for Thawte then
[7:53] Yes, i’d like a tag like that.
phillipp [7:53 PM] +1 for that tag
gawainlynch [7:54 PM] I'm in the "what ev's" category on that one … sahassar this is your area of ownership though
bob [7:54 PM] Add a ‘due for closing’ tag, and in the comments mention “Please feedback or work on this in the next 2 weeks, or we’ll consider closing it”
sahassar [7:54 PM] The way I've done it is to post a message to say a date when it's closing. If we add the tag we should also add the comment, so that the author is aware of it.
bob [7:54 PM] only in a friendlier tone
sahassar [7:54 PM] bob: exactly
gawainlynch [7:54 PM] Yeah, Svante has a point
bob [7:54 PM] sahassar Yes, you do, but i imagine it’s hard to keep track
gawainlynch [7:54 PM] Tags only give us grouping though
bob [7:55 PM] basically, the procedure wouldn’t change, only makes it easier to manage
gawainlynch [7:55 PM] Or are you thinking updatable strings on the tags related to dates? (edited)
sahassar [7:55 PM] Yep, the label just indicates the status.
[7:55] No, not date based labels!
gawainlynch [7:55 PM] (who gave me a keyboard)
sahassar [7:56 PM] The label just says this issue is closing soon, not when. For when you check the comment.
bob [7:56 PM] ^ yes.
[7:57] So, are we agreed on the label or not? It’s not clear to me :slightly_smiling_face:
gawainlynch [7:57 PM] ^ this
sahassar [7:57 PM] :+1:
bob [7:57 PM] ok! thx!
gawainlynch [7:57 PM] Bolt 3.2 beta 1. This time i'd like it if people actually tested it. (@bob)
See also: #5686 and Milestone 3.1
boltissueball [7:57 PM] #5686 [open] [Tracker] Bolt 3.2 Release Blocking Issues https://github.com/bolt/bolt/issues/5686
bob [7:57 PM] Ok, tody i packaged Beta 1 of 3.2
[7:58] last time, with 3.1 i packaged 3 betas
[7:58] i asked a ton of people to test
[7:58] and got _NO_ feedback
[7:58] then, the day after 3.1.0, i got complaints, even from *core members*
[7:58] that their shit broke
jkazimir [7:58 PM] moves the mic closer to the speaker
gawainlynch [7:59 PM] jkazimir Ears open
jkazimir [7:59 PM] gawainlynch Just trying to get some feedback
jkazimir [7:59 PM] hides
bob [7:59 PM] seriously, please test the beta to prevent stuff from breaking, otherwise having a beta is useless.
jkazimir [7:59 PM] Really though, I’l give it a spin
[7:59] I have Stace’s site on 3.1 now
jkazimir [7:59 PM] left #development
bob [7:59 PM] Ok, focus. :slightly_smiling_face:
jkazimir [8:00 PM] joined #development by invitation from @gawainlynch
sahassar [8:00 PM] bob: I got one site I think I can test it on. For how long do we think we'll be in beta stage?
gawainlynch [8:00 PM] Bob: I know this is going to land like a pile of poo … but what it indicates is problems in our tests … not "people" testing
bob [8:00 PM] I am not kidding about this.. It really pissed me off that nobody tested the beta’s and people had the gall to give me a hard time about it after 3.1.0.
gawainlynch [8:00 PM] …and one is covering the others lack, I get that
bob [8:01 PM] sahassar See #roadmap
boltissueball [8:01 PM] Bolt 2.x Roadmap available at https://docs.bolt.cm/3.0/other/roadmap
sahassar [8:01 PM] Would it be possible to send a newsletter to extension devs asking them to test their extensions on it too?
phillipp [8:01 PM] @bob i know you also mean me. i am sorry for that what i said one or two weeks ago. nothing was broken, it was just a communication issue.
bob [8:01 PM] hmm.. don’t think that’s the right link
[8:02] @sahassar This one: https://github.com/bolt/bolt/wiki/Bolt-3.x-Roadmap
sahassar [8:02 PM] hehe, we need to update the bot
gawainlynch [8:02 PM] We're not developing 2.0 still? :wink:
bob [8:02 PM] so, three weeks.
[8:02] unless things pop up, of course.
gawainlynch [8:02 PM] Haha … sahassar You are the *one* person I wouldn't bug for aPR on the bot (edited)
phillipp [8:02 PM] @sahassar i updated all documentation links but ignored the texts like a pro :sunglasses:
sahassar [8:03 PM] gawainlynch: Because I'd add another #http418 :smile:
boltissueball [8:03 PM] 418 I'm a teapot
gawainlynch [8:03 PM] @phillipp Seriously … thank you *again* for that work!
phillipp [8:03 PM] :slightly_smiling_face:
bob [8:03 PM] @phillipp No worries.. But please do take some time to do a monkey-test round this time. :slightly_smiling_face:
phillipp [8:04 PM] @bob sure, this time i will do :slightly_smiling_face:
gawainlynch [8:04 PM] sahassar: No … my point is that the members of the core team have grown fuctionally disperse and overloaded
sahassar [8:04 PM] So, the extension dev newsletter idea?
gawainlynch [8:04 PM] …and "You do that!" is not even remotely acceptable
bob [8:04 PM] @sahassar I like that idea,
gawainlynch [8:04 PM] @sahassar Yeah, agreed with Bob (edited)
bob [8:04 PM] but it might take a short while to get that set up.. Maynbe not for 3.2, but definitely for a next version
phillipp [8:05 PM] i like the idea too but i am not sure if we are allowed to send them emails if they didnt agree on that. at least in germany its forbidden
bob [8:05 PM] phillipp We’ll get a DO droplet in russia, and we’re fine.
phillipp [8:05 PM] :joy:
gawainlynch [8:05 PM] Phillipp: Yes, my 2009 based knowledge of your laws matches
sahassar [8:06 PM] We're okay under CAN-SPAM if we include an unsubscribe link :slightly_smiling_face:
[8:06] (that's US/CA)
phillipp [8:06 PM] damn 50+ years old people who restrict our freedom with stupid laws
[8:06] :smile:
bob [8:07 PM] okay, back to topic at hand.
phillipp [8:07 PM] sure
bob [8:07 PM] Idea for mailing list noted.. Let’s look into the options, because we all like that.
gawainlynch [8:07 PM] @ross are you about?
sahassar [8:08 PM] 1. everybody test 3.2 to the best of your ability
2. put together emaillist if possible/legal.
gawainlynch [8:09 PM] OK … I need everyone's attention for a second on 3.2
bob [8:09 PM] :eyes:
phillipp [8:09 PM] :eyes:
sahassar [8:09 PM] :squirrel:
phillipp [8:09 PM] :scream:
gawainlynch [8:10 PM] This one changes a *huge* playing field in terms of how Bolt will "show" it's operation … things that would have gone unreported, or WSoD will now throw a real exception
[8:10] We are going to see stuff turn up that's been hidden for years
[8:10] …literally
[8:10] I've fixed as much as I can find
phillipp [8:10 PM] that sounds like the start of a horror movie
gawainlynch [8:10 PM] But I really think this is a good time to pull together on monkey tests
[8:11] Any extensions you use, etc
[8:11] Core should be fine
bob [8:11 PM] Yes, more monkey testing! :monkey_face:
gawainlynch [8:11 PM] Nothing is "broken", we're just stopping the swallowing of all of these problems
[8:12] …what you will, however, find is that developing things like extensions will be eaiser
[8:12] You will actually get the exception that happened
bob [8:12 PM] Quick note: Try to avoid “happy paths”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_path
sahassar [8:12 PM] bob: are happy trails okay?
bob [8:12 PM] It’ll be second nature to just do the things you know will work.
gawainlynch [8:13 PM] …also, no, this is not BC breaking … shit was already broken … we just get to see it now
bob [8:13 PM] try to break it, click another button, do weird stuff.
[8:13] You know, like an actual newcomer to the system
gawainlynch [8:13 PM] BUT! We'll all of a sudden (after x years) see problem y
[8:13] So we're going to get reports
phillipp [8:13 PM] @bob no problem, i let my mom click through bolt :smile:
gawainlynch [8:14 PM] @phillipp: seriously a good idea
bob [8:14 PM] phillipp And your dad too. :wink:
sahassar [8:14 PM] Right, so... Perhaps we should add a page in the extension docs explaining this.
gawainlynch [8:14 PM] @phillipp: her lack of domain knowledge will show things up!
[8:14] @sahassar Yeah, just don't know what to add
sahassar [8:15 PM] Really, a page in the extension docs that show what has changed for extension devs for each version would be ideal.
gawainlynch [8:15 PM] Also, the extension devs are not going to be the upset ones
sahassar [8:15 PM] gawainlynch: No, but I'm guessing they are the ones needing info to fix it.
phillipp [8:15 PM] @sahassar isnt the upgrade guide the best place for that?
gawainlynch [8:15 PM] OK … *nothing* has changed in the API . just to be clear
[8:15] @sahassar Good point
[8:16] @phillipp It is probably something we need to cover in a few spots
[8:16] …not really one of those "It's here!" things
sahassar [8:16 PM] gawainlynch: Well, no changes to the API, but the "result" is different since it might show previously hidden errors/warnings, right?
gawainlynch [8:16 PM] @sahassar: Correct(ish)
phillipp [8:16 PM] @gawainlynch true, but we should think about it first, not just adding pages here and there like before. we need to keep the docs clean
gawainlynch [8:17 PM] During dev I was able to get a few of mine to throw exceptions that otherwise resulted in rendered pages in 3.2 - 1+ (edited)
sahassar [8:17 PM] phillipp: agreed.
gawainlynch [8:17 PM] @phillipp 100% agreed
[8:18] OK, we good on this for now?
sahassar [8:18 PM] yep
phillipp [8:18 PM] yeah
bob [8:18 PM] :+1:
gawainlynch [8:18 PM] Project UI-Beam … and this is where I wanted rarila
[8:18] I have spoken with every single core team member privately
sahassar [8:18 PM] (aka kick-npm/node-in-the-ass)
gawainlynch [8:19 PM] Yeah, it is (honestly) less (pun intended) about NPM as having easy to develop core modules
phillipp [8:19 PM] @sahassar we should name our js and css compiling package like that :smile:
gawainlynch [8:19 PM] @phillipp Not the issue :wink:
bob [8:20 PM] imho, it’s more about the PROCESS than anything else.
gawainlynch [8:20 PM] @jkazimir are you around?
[8:20] @tobe are you watching in?
bob [8:20 PM] we could use COBOL for all I care, as long as it works reliably
sahassar [8:20 PM] I like the idea, but I'm also thinking this is a major change and will be included in 4.0, right?
gawainlynch [8:20 PM] @sahassar you already know ping is inbound :stuck_out_tongue:
[8:20] sahassar No
bob [8:21 PM] sahassar That is to be decided, I think.
gawainlynch [8:21 PM] BC breaks, yes
bob [8:21 PM] Gawain says we can do this without BC breaks, but i’d like to see where it takes us, and decide later
gawainlynch [8:21 PM] OK … @carson need backup if you're around :stuck_out_tongue: … but we need to transition stuff
[8:21] @bob: I love that as a point :heart:
bob [8:21 PM] :slightly_smiling_face:
phillipp [8:22 PM] gawain said to me custom field types, especially their twig templates are likely to not break. so all fine for me :slightly_smiling_face:
gawainlynch [8:22 PM] OK … so the *primary* goals here are a) (mostly unrelated, but where it started) that we can (choose) to load unminified assets; b) get the logic out of the view layer
[8:23] b) is the hard part … the long part
sahassar [8:23 PM] I don't think that much that I have deployed in production would break because of this, but since 3.0 landed we have touted bolt as a framework too (besides a CMS), so my fear is that someone using it more like that might need a "warning" that a major change is done.
bob [8:23 PM] and “b” can be done incrementally, or at least by different teams of people
gawainlynch [8:23 PM] I am not demanding input or help, and will graciously go into a corner … but if we're doing this … let's all work together and get it right
[8:24] @sahassar You know my opinion on that :wink: (edited)
bob [8:24 PM] I think we won’t “break” {{ context }} right now for extensions that use it.. We’ll just do it in the controllers ourselves.
gawainlynch [8:24 PM] @bob: some of it yes, but not the model
[8:24] @bob What you said in that last comment :slightly_smiling_face:
bob [8:25 PM] so, extensions using “logic in templates” wont break.
gawainlynch [8:25 PM] ^
[8:25] This has exacty 0% to do with frontend btw
[8:25] (just to clarify)
bob [8:25 PM] It’s not like we’re moving to Blade or some other half-assed template language.
phillipp [8:25 PM] haha
gawainlynch [8:25 PM] This is totally about Bolt's backend (edited)
phillipp [8:25 PM] jade :stuck_out_tongue:
sahassar [8:26 PM] btw, when looking around the repo you set up for this... wouldn't it make sense to make frontend it's own package too? for example theme_defaults is in bolt/backend, when they are only used for the frontend, right?
bob [8:26 PM] I actually think my analogy to compare it with a car is apt..
gawainlynch [8:26 PM] …and is *not* about a visual redesign
bob [8:26 PM] Neither the outside of the car, nor the interior will change.
gawainlynch [8:27 PM] https://github.com/bolt/bolt/compare/master...feature/new-backend
https://github.com/bolt/backend
bob [8:27 PM] We are just going to rip out the transmission, and replace the automatic for a manual.
gawainlynch [8:27 PM] @sahassar: to some extent yes … but let's take Symfony's approach there … one "main" repo
bob [8:27 PM] For the record: I am dead set against different repo’s.
gawainlynch [8:28 PM] https://files.slack.com/files-tmb/T094H101L-F2FHD4MC7-78ae536b48/pasted_image_at_2016_09_24_16_34_720.png
bob [8:28 PM] i want to checkout bolt/bolt and be able to work in it
sahassar [8:29 PM] I thought one of the plans was to have bolt/backend be like bolt/thumbs or bolt/filesystem? it's own package and it's own repo?
gawainlynch [8:29 PM] FWIW … https://github.com/symfony/symfony
[8:29] sahassar: Yes, concepts are getting crossed
[8:29] Yo Carson :slightly_smiling_face:
[8:30] sahassar: Like SF a core repo … wtih components split out *for* Composer
carson [8:30 PM] bolt/filesystem is completely independent of core, so it’s separate. backend heavily relies on core’s setup because it builds on top of it
gawainlynch [8:30 PM] …i.e. zip or git clone gets you everything … but a composer install can be minimised
bob [8:31 PM] ohai, carson :slightly_smiling_face:
sahassar [8:31 PM] Okay, combined repo, separate package? (edited)
carson [8:31 PM] bolt/backend would need to depend on bolt/bolt, just like an extension. So it’s way easier for development to keep it in same repo.
gawainlynch [8:31 PM] "I want UI, storage and that really cool session package"
carson [8:31 PM] Not separate package, yet
gawainlynch [8:32 PM] FWIW … those branches I linked are proof of concept
[8:32] …nothing more :slightly_smiling_face:
carson [8:32 PM] Once things are better split up and refactored then we can talk about breaking it apart
[8:32] There’s still lots of stuff in core that is on death’s row
gawainlynch [8:33 PM] @sahassar What is *not* PoC is this https://github.com/GawainLynch/bolt/tree/feature/modular-backend (well as it that branch will land in one form… but the work in it at the moment is experimental) (edited)
[8:33] carson: So hold back … I know one of the last 3 commits is going to send you mental :stuck_out_tongue:
[8:34] OK… so one of the non-me things in this is the use of Vue … thoughts?
carson [8:34 PM] I think a framework is definitely needed (edited)
gawainlynch [8:34 PM] ^
[8:35] @carson: Part of my personal grand(er) plan too (edited)
phillipp [8:35 PM] +1 for VueJs for separate components in the backend. no SPA please :slightly_smiling_face:
bob [8:35 PM] Vue looks nice
[8:35] yes, no SPA, we’re all on the same page about that.
sahassar [8:35 PM] Well, I'd like to avoid using one if we can, but I don't think I can see a way we can.
phillipp [8:36 PM] if we can trade jquery against vuejs in the long run ... :thumbsup:
gawainlynch [8:36 PM] sahassar: yeah, kinda in the same boat … but it really (for me) comes down to being NIH
bob [8:36 PM] Well, maybe not jquery in the short term..
gawainlynch [8:36 PM] i.e. if we write our own
carson [8:36 PM] @sahassar: avoid framework or spa?
gawainlynch [8:36 PM] jQuery has to be v4 or v5
sahassar [8:36 PM] How is Vue in terms of accessibility?
[8:36] carson: both.
bob [8:36 PM] but def. jquery UI and a bunch of other singe-purpose libs
[8:37] @sahassar Neutral
[8:37] Vue won’t make anything more or less accessible
gawainlynch [8:37 PM] sahassar: FWIW have a look at the code … it is honestly the first time I have looked at JS and not lot my shit
bob [8:38 PM] It’s up to us to use Vue (or anything JS powered) as _progressive enhancement_.
gawainlynch [8:38 PM] …quite the opposite … I actually said nice things to *several* friends/colleagues/coworkers
[8:38] @bob Awesome point
phillipp [8:39 PM] yeah, we could start redoing single small things in the backend with it to see how it goes
sahassar [8:39 PM] Btw me wanting to avoid it is cause a framework usually takes over both the html and the js. In an ideal world the backend would be html enhanced by js (not required). If we can come close to that with Vue,  I'm all for it.
[8:40] (close not meaning closer, but somewhat close.)
gawainlynch [8:40 PM] sahassar Agreed … and it isn't perfect … but have a quick read of the code (edited)
bob [8:40 PM] sahassar Yes, good point, and it seems Vue will allow that.
phillipp [8:40 PM] @sahassar have you looked at my (little ugly) vue js script on the extension store for the stats?
gawainlynch [8:41 PM] …it's worlds apart from the rest of the ecosystem (edited)
bob [8:41 PM] It’s very non-intrusive
sahassar [8:41 PM] phillipp, bob, gawainlynch: Sounds good :slightly_smiling_face:
gawainlynch [8:41 PM] @jkazimir: Got yours in buffer? (edited)
sahassar [8:41 PM] I was just afraid we'd land in the "include this script tag and an empty html page and let js take over"
phillipp [8:42 PM] haha hell no
[8:43] vue is really nice for small components which require interaction with the user
gawainlynch [8:43 PM] sahassar You're not alone
bob [8:43 PM] I think jkazimir is pooping.
gawainlynch [8:43 PM] Yeah… you make your componetns big … they stop
[8:43] As I read it , it forces SOLID on you
bob [8:44 PM] @sahassar But, don’t let us push you over.. Take a look at it, and conclude for yourself.
gawainlynch [8:44 PM] …oh and promises
[8:44] ^ what Bob said!!!!!
phillipp [8:44 PM] yeah, we should all feel well about it
sahassar [8:44 PM] phillipp, bob, gawainlynch: I'll have a look and it sounds very good to me :slightly_smiling_face:
carson [8:44 PM] Can we use es2015 syntax and classes?
gawainlynch [8:44 PM] es6
carson [8:44 PM] same thing
sahassar [8:45 PM] gawainlynch: It's es2015 now, right?
bob [8:45 PM] carson we can. we’re not required
gawainlynch [8:45 PM] But we still have jQuery
[8:45] sahassar NFI :smile:
bob [8:45 PM] jquery can stay. If we don’t use it, it’s no bother.
sahassar [8:46 PM] hehe, es6 was when it was a standard with a defined spec (like w3c's HTML5), es2015 is a snapshot of a living standard (like WHATWG's HTML) IIRC
bob [8:46 PM] TBH wanting to remove jquery, is like people in the late ’90’s wanting to stop using <table> in favor of css, even for tabular date.
gawainlynch [8:46 PM] Kewl, thanks
bob [8:47 PM] Every tool has it’s needs. (edited)
sahassar [8:47 PM] bob: We can discuss that later :wink:
phillipp [8:47 PM] @bob i am sorry for letting my personal hate against jquery come into this meeting :slightly_smiling_face:
sahassar [8:48 PM] Still, I think we should really get this into a meet/whatever when rarila can have a say.
bob [8:48 PM] sure thing
phillipp [8:48 PM] yep
gawainlynch [8:49 PM] @sahassar Agreed … and he wants ES6 everywhere :smile: (edited)
phillipp [8:49 PM] ha
gawainlynch [8:49 PM] … and I want to learn to type
sahassar [8:49 PM] As long as we use http://html9responsiveboilerstrapjs.com/ everything is fine by me
bob [8:50 PM] and, perhaps this goes without saying: But we will _not_ use typescript, livescript, coffeescript, bananascript or any other fancy compile-to-js pseudo-language.
gawainlynch [8:50 PM] COBOL!!!!
phillipp [8:50 PM] @sahassar dont post those links when i drink! :smile:
[8:50] bananascript :joy:
[8:51] guys, i am having dinner. and i dont want to share it with my screen xD
sahassar [8:51 PM] weeeeeelll...Typescript seems pretty nice... It's also basically just typechecking on top of javascript, so it doesn't change syntax. But whatever we decide works will work. (edited)
bob [8:51 PM] sahassar My major gripe is: one extra step in the compilation process,
[8:52] which is one extra step that can break.. I don’t like that.
[8:52] i want _less_ moving parts, not more
gawainlynch [8:52 PM] FWIW … Svante just convinced me we should be using TypeScript (edited)
carson [8:53 PM] We are using TypeScript for a new GMO project too. I support it
sahassar [8:53 PM] I don't think our problems have been with dependencies in general, the problem has been badly chosen dependencies. So, if we choose dependencies well we won't have that issue.
bob [8:53 PM] ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
gawainlynch [8:53 PM] carson OK, but why?
phillipp [8:53 PM] @sahassar but our dependencies will have dependencies and so on.
sahassar [8:53 PM] Or, not badly chosen, but more along the lines of "This works, why not?" Rather than "this works, should we use it?"
[8:54] Default no vs. default yes.
bob [8:54 PM] I really think at this time we should focus on _less_ dependencies until we get our shit together.
phillipp [8:54 PM] +1
gawainlynch [8:54 PM] @sahassar I agree with that statement 9000% … but I am not convinced we can avoid it with JavaScript as there is a total of 1 competent JS developer on planet Earth, and he seem to be the guy that wrote Vue
bob [8:55 PM] I’ve heard good thing about that JSON guy too.
gawainlynch [8:55 PM] bob: we hired him … he went and covereted every frigging thing to XML :confused: (edited)
sahassar [8:55 PM] gawainlynch: Well, if you avoid and dislike an ecosystem it might seem like that, but I bet that you have used very little js libs outside of the ones used for bolt, right?
gawainlynch [8:56 PM] sahassar No… but yes… I have never read jQuery core as and example
sahassar [8:56 PM] I don't like NPM hell more than anyone else, but we are painting with a broad brush.
gawainlynch [8:57 PM] … but I start reading code, docs second … and when you get to line 2 or 3 and want to set fire to your computer …
[8:57] sahassar: My objection with NPM is just *forcing* someone to need it
[8:57] e.g. with SASS … I can now compile a branch using sassc
sahassar [8:57 PM] Well, the issue was never npm. The issue was the dependencies we pulled from npm, right? (edited)
gawainlynch [8:57 PM] … that *must* be my choice
bob [8:58 PM] I agree with @sahassar on this one.. NPM is crap, but it is not the core of the problem..
gawainlynch [8:58 PM] sahassar: 3 days … 3 machines … all binaries from either vendor (Red Hat or Node) and I couldn't even get the binary to output the version
[8:58] i.e nadda
bob [8:59 PM] I’m sure we can leverage NPM better, by cutting out the worst of the crap we happen to pull in by using NPM
[8:59] as in, “don’t blame NPM for leftpad”
gawainlynch [8:59 PM] …then I get it up and running … 3 days later … any normal and sane dev has given up by now … and I can't compile the JS because it is the 3rd Tuesdya of the month
sahassar [8:59 PM] So, whatever we do next, let's not blame a package manager for the packages it contains. It will only increase the risks that we repeat mistakes.
gawainlynch [9:00 PM] NPM wasn't at fault for LeftPad … but it is exactly the eco-shit I am talking about
[9:00] OK … winding bak on the left pad fuk wit … they guy got a perfectly normal legal letter and lost his shit … the guy is a fucking idiot (edited)
sahassar [9:00 PM] gawainlynch: Right, but you don't throw away composer because it has a few shitty packages, right?
gawainlynch [9:01 PM] sahassar Every time I have had a Composer issue, Rob, Nils or Jordi have been awesome, available and fixed the problem fast
sahassar [9:01 PM] I'm just saying that if we want to fix a problem we should identify the reason for the problem (bad deps) rather than paint with such a broad brush that it limits what we will/can do. that's it.
gawainlynch [9:02 PM] …FFS the biggest single composer issue to date was fixed by Jordi, Rob and I combining effrots
bob [9:02 PM] @here This is a good discussion to have, but let’s wrap up the dev meeting first. :slightly_smiling_face:
gawainlynch [9:02 PM] @bob Dont' know we're done
[9:02] But sahassar … probably a good point … all yours
bob [9:02 PM] we’re not :slightly_smiling_face:
gawainlynch [9:03 PM] Hehe … the watchers are watching (edited)
sahassar [9:04 PM] Did we bring up "Should we introduce (optional) team internal workshops to easily share knowledge across the team? (Phillipp)"?
gawainlynch [9:04 PM] sahassar The ecosystem thing I am pointing to is *not* practically addressable … but …
[9:05] PHP for years was the community to look at for how *not* to relate/do things … the JS *guys* (and yes, they're male) are just a toxic group who … yeah … rant starting :smile:
sahassar [9:05 PM] gawainlynch: It's not addressable except by actually thinking about what deps we include. Which is what we should (and will be doing) anyway (edited)
gawainlynch [9:05 PM] sahassar Yeah, but if person "Y" takes over project "A" stuff changes
bob [9:05 PM] repeats: @here This is a good discussion to have, but let’s wrap up the dev meeting first. :slightly_smiling_face:
gawainlynch [9:06 PM] @phillipp Your point
phillipp [9:06 PM] ok. lemme explain before someone starts to complain :slightly_smiling_face:
gawainlynch [9:06 PM] But :stuck_out_tongue:
phillipp [9:06 PM] :smile:
bob [9:06 PM] go ahead.
phillipp [9:07 PM] so, yesterday i woke up and thought about having better information sharing across the team. there are some things that are a bit more complicated and then a chat and a few screenshots arent enough or take too long.
gawainlynch [9:08 PM] Yeah, and I struggle with that (as I am sure Carson and Ross do too), as there is much in our heads (edited)
phillipp [9:08 PM] so my idea is that if someone did something (like gawain with his config loader/validator thing) he *could* say "i open a google hangouts session at XX to explain what i did and and everyone who is interested can join"
[9:09] i am not saying we should force people to share knowledge in that way, i just want to remind that we have such an option and for some things, its just easier to share the screen, show something live and have a discussion about it
jkazimir [9:09 PM] Sorry, had meeting here and am just catching up… Yes, am for +1 Vue at component level, not app level
gawainlynch [9:10 PM] jkazimir: Danke je wel
jkazimir [9:10 PM] And no, was not pooping
carson [9:10 PM] @phillipp That’s alot easier for me than writing up docs
[9:10] Not that docs isn’t the long term solution
ross [9:11 PM] sorry all… I’m about now
gawainlynch [9:11 PM] @carson: you ross and I would probably save ourselves a lot in the long run
[9:11] @ross Zero stress mate … running a company aint easy
phillipp [9:11 PM] @carson i remember when you explained me and sahassar what the merge down of the branches does. i think it would have been easier for us to see it live on your screen
gawainlynch [9:12 PM] @phillipp Wasnt' that me?
sahassar [9:12 PM] The "problem" I see (and problems are meant to be solved) is the main times that people are having problems getting an solutions the issue is getting through to the person, not information efficiency IMO. And even if it might be more efficent, it's not as searchable when you need it again.
phillipp [9:12 PM] @gawainlynch yeah but carson also did that before
gawainlynch [9:12 PM] @phillipp OK
sahassar [9:12 PM] It was during the docs workbranch stuff IIRC
carson [9:13 PM] worktree*
sahassar [9:13 PM] slaps myself
gawainlynch [9:13 PM] @sahassar: Yeah, ironically one reason I dislike slack … 3+ years of text based logs :slightly_smiling_face: (edited)
phillipp [9:13 PM] @sahassar ok, example. gawain showed us his config branch. do you think it would have clicked in your brain when he just shared some codesnippets and 3 screenshots? at least for me, it wouldnt
bob [9:13 PM] sidetrack: we should look into http://slackarchive.io/
sahassar [9:14 PM] phillipp: did he show it to you via video?
gawainlynch [9:14 PM] @phillipp No it wouldn't … Even Svante asked me if I was sane when I first showed him snippets (edited)
[9:14] …so yes, people generally need "visual"
phillipp [9:14 PM] @sahassar no, i saw it live because i sat next to him in the police station xD
sahassar [9:15 PM] but wait... @gawainlynch didn't we talk about that here on slack instead of in person, right?
[9:15] Sorry, that's irrelevant.
phillipp [9:16 PM] and as i said, its optional and just as a reminder that we have this ability to start a hangouts session. because sometimes, its just faster and easier. and it can also be recorded
sahassar [9:16 PM] Anyway, I think that if this is helpful we should do it :slightly_smiling_face:
[9:17] I'm talking from my use-case, which is of course not universal.
gawainlynch [9:17 PM] @sahassar Yeah, we did privately … and you were happy to trust my judgement until you'd seen more (my words), but when you were at Tk and I sat you both down and showed you two, it was a very quick "OK, I see what you're doing"
sahassar [9:17 PM] @gawainlynch Ah, right
gawainlynch [9:18 PM] My point is that (esp. for someone like me) seeing this stuff is really helpful
sahassar [9:19 PM] @bob And btw, if we could get the slackarchive up here that'd be awesome :slightly_smiling_face:
gawainlynch [9:19 PM] …so if it is useful to "me" to watch, how much of the team would benefit in the same way
[9:20] OK… so thought
bob [9:20 PM] in the meantime: https://github.com/bolt/bolt/labels/Due%20for%20closing
gawainlynch [9:20 PM] One of our bigger problems in the team is knowledge, the other one is available time … or we'd have all wrtten War & Peace Documentation Version
bob [9:20 PM] sahassar I’ll reach out to them, see what we can do.
gawainlynch [9:21 PM] So for me the great thing would be to put heads together to think of better ways (even ways that other groups are using sucsssfully) of just sharing
[9:22] I can't tell you how many days, for example, I just want to bug Ross about a question
[9:22] …but it was probably asked of him "Yesterday" and wasting his time prevents him from writing code
sahassar [9:23 PM] If the videos could be transcribed (does hangouts have that?) that'd be even better... Anything searchable/text-based can act as a starting point for further thought into docs or be refereed to later.
phillipp [9:23 PM] :clock1: +  :coffee: => `<?php ...`
gawainlynch [9:23 PM] sahassar It does, but it si Google's translation engine
[9:24] …and larger solutions like bunches of recorded videos are awesome
[9:24] …but
[9:24] Cost (time) of production is too high
sahassar [9:24 PM] gawainlynch: You mean "yellow banana purple work:koala:"
gawainlynch [9:24 PM] ^
ross [9:24 PM] send more :beers:
gawainlynch [9:25 PM] Phillipp's idea is just getting us together in a voice capable medium
ross [9:25 PM] i think IRC is back now
gawainlynch [9:25 PM] ross : still not responding for me
bob [9:25 PM] @ross Not for me.
ross [9:26 PM] must be some kind of ddos I guess
sahassar [9:26 PM] sweden is back on freenode
gawainlynch [9:26 PM] Quick FE sanity check on #5828
boltissueball [9:26 PM] #5828 [open] Fixing overflow in exceptions. https://github.com/bolt/bolt/pull/5828
phillipp [9:26 PM] at least IKEA can connect again :smile:
ross [9:26 PM] #5828 = #1555
boltissueball [9:26 PM] #5828 [open] Fixing overflow in exceptions. https://github.com/bolt/bolt/pull/5828
boltissueball [9:26 PM] warns ross that #1555 nearly caused the end of the known universe and should never be mentioned again
gawainlynch [9:27 PM] Touché, slackbot
sahassar [9:27 PM] Yeah... beermerge it :slightly_smiling_face:
gawainlynch [9:27 PM] OK … I'd have to Google it … IDK CSSPQWEMYYB
ross [9:28 PM] it’s whitespace…. what’s the worst….
gawainlynch [9:28 PM] OK, that is issues covered … @ross (et al) have anything to raise?
ross [9:28 PM] apart from it being Python I suppose
[9:28] then syntax error
sahassar [9:28 PM] Alright, closing this... </meeting>
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