Dev meeting 2015 11 24

Nov 25 05:30:06 <gawainlynch>	pinging Bopp, carsonfull, rarila, rossriley, SahAssar / SahAssar2 & slick0 
Nov 25 05:30:22 <Bopp>	yo! 
Nov 25 05:30:23 <rossriley>	is that last orders
Nov 25 05:30:23 <slick0>	ponging gawainlynch 
Nov 25 05:30:24 <carsonfull>	gawainlynch: I kinda agree that .twig shouldn't be hardcoded.
Nov 25 05:30:29 <carsonfull>	Let's talk about it after this
Nov 25 05:30:36 <gawainlynch>	carsonfull: That's the plan
Nov 25 05:30:40 <Bopp>	https://github.com/bolt/cheatsheet/pulls
Nov 25 05:30:52 <Klauso>	hello, Bopp
Nov 25 05:31:07 <Bopp>	hey Klauso
Nov 25 05:31:53 <gawainlynch>	Just waiting on rossriley & SahAssar 
Nov 25 05:32:10 <rossriley>	here
Nov 25 05:32:30 <Bopp>	is rarila present?
Nov 25 05:32:32 <SahAssar2>	Here
Nov 25 05:32:56 <gawainlynch>	Oh yeah… I did ping… 05:30 and attention span is my excuse
Nov 25 05:33:15 <gawainlynch>	I think this is Princess Dinner Time for him though
Nov 25 05:33:17 <Bopp>	:-)
Nov 25 05:33:38 <Bopp>	he'll have to read up later.
Nov 25 05:34:08 <gawainlynch>	OK… rossriley tradition gets you in the firing line… storage I think is closed off now and what's left for repeating fields?
Nov 25 05:34:18 <Bopp>	for the lazy: #4202
Nov 25 05:34:19 -[BoltIssueBall]/#boltcms-	#4202 [open] [Tracker] Bolt 2.3 Release Blocking Issues https://github.com/bolt/bolt/issues/4202 
Nov 25 05:34:22 <gawainlynch>	Correction… #4360
Nov 25 05:34:24 -[BoltIssueBall]/#boltcms-	#4360 [open] Adding a select in templatefields throws DB error https://github.com/bolt/bolt/issues/4360  — assigned to rossriley
Nov 25 05:35:29 <rossriley>	very close… it’s all in the WIP PR just a couple of bugs to iron out
Nov 25 05:35:41 <rossriley>	and cleaning up deleted blocks
Nov 25 05:35:49 <gawainlynch>	Ah, yeah… SahAssar is that WiP in the main tracker?
Nov 25 05:36:05 <SahAssar2>	gawainlynch: nope, does not look like it. Adding now
Nov 25 05:36:13 <gawainlynch>	Thanks mate
Nov 25 05:36:17 <gawainlynch>	Bopp… widgets?
Nov 25 05:36:45 <gawainlynch>	Bopp: Also that leads onto your and SahAssar's work on base-2016
Nov 25 05:36:48 <rossriley>	#4479
Nov 25 05:36:49 -[BoltIssueBall]/#boltcms-	#4479 [open] WIP More fixes for repeating fields https://github.com/bolt/bolt/pull/4479 
Nov 25 05:36:49 <Bopp>	1 piece of functionality left. then it's only docs and bugs if they pop up. 
Nov 25 05:37:00 <Bopp>	so, i'm getting there. 
Nov 25 05:37:14 <gawainlynch>	Bopp: Awesome, so if you had to estimate a timeline?
Nov 25 05:37:19 <Bopp>	There were 2 other issies assigned to me, both are fixed/resolved. 
Nov 25 05:37:32 <Bopp>	this week somewhere. Sunday at the latest
Nov 25 05:37:33 <gawainlynch>	Yeah, you were pumping them out there :-)
Nov 25 05:37:41 <gawainlynch>	Wonderful
Nov 25 05:37:52 <gawainlynch>	Oh… I shot ahead of myself on something
Nov 25 05:38:14 <gawainlynch>	slick0: Care to… take the wheel for a second? ;-)
Nov 25 05:38:26 <slick0>	sure :)
Nov 25 05:38:42 <slick0>	sooo, some of you already know this… i've gotten myself a new job coming up
Nov 25 05:38:59 <slick0>	starting on the 7th, i'll be a Full Stack Engineer at CA :)
Nov 25 05:39:07 <gawainlynch>	#karma slick0 
Nov 25 05:39:10 <[BoltIssueBall]>	BoltKarma for slick0 is now 66
Nov 25 05:39:14 <Bopp>	yay! 
Nov 25 05:39:16 <SahAssar2>	Congrats slick0!
Nov 25 05:39:17 <rossriley>	#karma slick0 
Nov 25 05:39:19 <[BoltIssueBall]>	BoltKarma for slick0 is now 67
Nov 25 05:39:21 <slick0>	thanks :)
Nov 25 05:39:26 <carsonfull>	#karma slick0 
Nov 25 05:39:29 <[BoltIssueBall]>	BoltKarma for slick0 is now 68
Nov 25 05:39:29 <rossriley>	#karma slick0
Nov 25 05:39:31 <[BoltIssueBall]>	slick0 got their first real six-string…
Nov 25 05:39:32 <[BoltIssueBall]>	Bought it at the five-and-dime…
Nov 25 05:39:32 <[BoltIssueBall]>	Played it 'til their fingers bled…
Nov 25 05:39:32 <[BoltIssueBall]>	It was the summer of '69
Nov 25 05:39:32 <[BoltIssueBall]>	#beer
Nov 25 05:39:34 <rossriley>	i’m having that one
Nov 25 05:39:42 <carsonfull>	Congrats bro
Nov 25 05:39:51 <gawainlynch>	So slick0 will be a point person at CA for helping them integrate their work back into core where appropriate… so I have invited him to join these meetings to help in that endeavour
Nov 25 05:40:06 <slick0>	i'm hoping to get the team there better integrated with the community here, and to have a ton more time to put towards the project in general :)
Nov 25 05:40:19 <gawainlynch>	Really happy for you mate
Nov 25 05:40:28 <gawainlynch>	carsonfull: FS
Nov 25 05:40:29 <slick0>	thank you all, again :)
Nov 25 05:40:56 <carsonfull>	Super excited about that
Nov 25 05:41:22 <carsonfull>	Filesystem code is pretty much ready to go. We are just writing tests
Nov 25 05:41:41 <gawainlynch>	We is carsonfull & I, for full disclosure
Nov 25 05:41:52 <gawainlynch>	carsonfull: Estimate on when we can do the core integration?
Nov 25 05:41:57 <carsonfull>	I'll need to rebase my branch in core and continue there
Nov 25 05:42:09 <Klauso>	congratulations, slick0!
Nov 25 05:42:21 <carsonfull>	When? Today. But its going to take a little bit of time
Nov 25 05:42:31 *	rarilaDroid (~rarila@ipservice-092-211-020-245.092.211.pools.vodafone-ip.de) has joined #boltcms
Nov 25 05:42:41 <gawainlynch>	So you'll continue on that over the next week then?
Nov 25 05:42:56 *	rarila has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
Nov 25 05:43:01 <carsonfull>	Once we get the bulk in we can probably merge and see what other people find too
Nov 25 05:43:05 <rarilaDroid>	Oh, sorry, family dinner
Nov 25 05:43:18 <gawainlynch>	That just leaves the session work, which is mostly closing off BC… that can follow after
Nov 25 05:43:21 <carsonfull>	Yeah as much as I can. Holidays this weekend 
Nov 25 05:43:30 <gawainlynch>	rarilaDroid: Zero stress mate, we figured
Nov 25 05:43:40 <Bopp>	oh, right.. Turkey-day in the US! :-)
Nov 25 05:43:43 <gawainlynch>	OK… so now on to the fun
Nov 25 05:43:50 <gawainlynch>	Releases…
Nov 25 05:43:52 <carsonfull>	Yeah I don't think there is too much to do with sessions I just havent touched it yet
Nov 25 05:44:05 <carsonfull>	Bopp: yep!
Nov 25 05:44:52 <gawainlynch>	We have some competing needs… the two camps I understand to be driving on the marketing of kicking along "big numbers" and those of that don't want 2 BC braking major releases in a year… Correct?
Nov 25 05:45:11 <Bopp>	yes. 
Nov 25 05:45:21 <Bopp>	i think that's correct. 
Nov 25 05:45:29 <gawainlynch>	*breaking
Nov 25 05:45:50 <gawainlynch>	rossriley & carsonfull: do either of you want to chime in on this?
Nov 25 05:46:41 <Bopp>	I'd just like to point out, that we don't _have_ to break BC in order to bump the major.. It's only the other way that's required (break BC, bump major) 
Nov 25 05:46:45 <carsonfull>	I'm on my phone :/ 
Nov 25 05:46:48 <rossriley>	yes, I’m of the opinion that we should make upgrading from 2.x to 3.0 as smooth as possible even though it’s a major release
Nov 25 05:47:39 <gawainlynch>	Just want to point out that we have a number of upstream blockers on Bolt v3… SF3 isn't released, a number of our dependencies are locked on SF3
Nov 25 05:47:45 <carsonfull>	And I think we should break BC in as few releases as possible. Grouping them up
Nov 25 05:47:47 <gawainlynch>	*SF2
Nov 25 05:48:25 <Bopp>	And i agree completely with all that.. 
Nov 25 05:48:51 <gawainlynch>	Bopp: So you are saying make 2.4 into 3.0 and 2.5 into 4.0 and 3.0 into 5.0?
Nov 25 05:48:54 <Bopp>	None of those things prevent us from bumping to 3.0 in half a year, and to 4.0 in another half a year
Nov 25 05:48:59 <gawainlynch>	All in 2016
Nov 25 05:49:09 <Bopp>	gawainlynch: 2.4 -> 3.0 yes.
Nov 25 05:49:19 <carsonfull>	I think if we do a major release next, its going to be a really long release cycle 
Nov 25 05:49:24 <Bopp>	other than that, not sure.. 2.5 -> 3.1 
Nov 25 05:49:30 <Bopp>	3.0 -> 4 perhaps? 
Nov 25 05:49:33 <carsonfull>	(Sorry I'm behind)
Nov 25 05:49:58 <Bopp>	basically I don't want to change anything about the scopes of releases. 
Nov 25 05:50:03 <gawainlynch>	OK… my example assumes that we need a SemVer 2.4 & 2.5 before a BC breaking 3.0 (current roadmap)
Nov 25 05:50:04 <Bopp>	just, bump the major sooner. 
Nov 25 05:50:19 <Bopp>	people are getting annoyed that we promised a 3.0 after 2.2, 
Nov 25 05:50:29 <carsonfull>	We did?
Nov 25 05:50:29 <Bopp>	and now we're squeesing in a 2.3
Nov 25 05:50:52 <gawainlynch>	Bopp: But also I have heard you repeatedly scratch your head at people thinking we release too often
Nov 25 05:50:52 <Bopp>	and, if we follow that up by a 2.4 and a 2.5 too, people will get more annoyed
Nov 25 05:51:01 <rossriley>	well lets go from 2.3 to 3.0 with no new features then
Nov 25 05:51:15 <Bopp>	gawainlynch: That was mainly in the hectic 2.1 days.
Nov 25 05:51:18 <Bopp>	not anymore
Nov 25 05:51:19 <rossriley>	or maybe 2.4 as a deprecation only release
Nov 25 05:51:21 <gawainlynch>	Bopp: Cool
Nov 25 05:51:28 <carsonfull>	Ross We aren't ready for that
Nov 25 05:51:56 <Bopp>	or, i'd be happy with 2.3.x instead of 2.4 too
Nov 25 05:52:03 <gawainlynch>	rossriley & carsonfull: Reasonable to say we're 2 minors away from a BC-breaker?
Nov 25 05:52:08 <slick0>	rossriley: any reason the deprecations we're ready for can't go in 2.3?
Nov 25 05:52:12 <carsonfull>	Bopp: why do you say that?
Nov 25 05:52:12 <Bopp>	basically, i just do not want a 2.4 or 2.5
Nov 25 05:52:23 <rossriley>	slick0: just time and testing on my part...
Nov 25 05:52:35 <carsonfull>	slick0: they can. We just don't have all of them done
Nov 25 05:52:36 <slick0>	got it
Nov 25 05:52:51 <Bopp>	carsonfull: because people see it as backpedalling and stalling on our part
Nov 25 05:52:58 <rossriley>	slick0: there’s replacement for search and replacement for getContent which should be ready to go, but it’s had no heavy usage yet
Nov 25 05:53:13 <slick0>	wasn't sure if it was just a matter of docblock @deprecated or not… i'd guess not :)
Nov 25 05:53:21 <gawainlynch>	Also can I just point out that we're 11.5 months after 2.0.0
Nov 25 05:53:26 <carsonfull>	Bopp: 2.4 and 2.5 are seen as stalling?
Nov 25 05:53:55 <carsonfull>	Why is that seen as stalling? We are still adding new features 
Nov 25 05:54:07 <gawainlynch>	carsonfull: Marketing…
Nov 25 05:54:11 <rossriley>	well there’s no point worrying about version numbers, we can release 4.0 three months after 3.0 if we need to
Nov 25 05:54:18 <Bopp>	carsonfull: yes, because we pomised 3.0, and people see us squeezing out intermediate versions
Nov 25 05:54:44 <Bopp>	carsonfull: i know you don't care about marketing, but it is very important how people see the project
Nov 25 05:55:15 <gawainlynch>	OK… so stepping back
Nov 25 05:55:32 <carsonfull>	Well going from 3.0 to 4.0 in 3 months would be negative marketing 
Nov 25 05:55:32 <rarilaDroid>	Let's do it like microsoft and php and jump from 2.x to 4.0 ;-)
Nov 25 05:55:37 <gawainlynch>	carsonfull: What is it that you would object to with tagging a 3.0 without BC-breaks?
Nov 25 05:55:47 <Bopp>	carsonfull: you could add a bunch of magic in a 0.0.1 version, but the general population will see it as insignificant, unless accompanied by a major bump
Nov 25 05:56:31 <gawainlynch>	Bopp: Am I correct that the opposite to my last question for you is simply market interpretation?
Nov 25 05:56:48 <gawainlynch>	i.e not BC-breaking and major bumping
Nov 25 05:57:10 <Bopp>	gawainlynch: I think so. 
Nov 25 05:57:14 <gawainlynch>	Thank yo
Nov 25 05:57:14 <Bopp>	english hard
Nov 25 05:57:17 <gawainlynch>	*you
Nov 25 05:57:28 <carsonfull>	People were mad at Taylor for releasing 5.0 shortly after 4.0
Nov 25 05:57:45 <carsonfull>	That's what I'm trying to avoid 
Nov 25 05:57:47 <slick0>	carsonfull: no, people were mad at taylor changing all the things in it
Nov 25 05:57:48 <Bopp>	carsonfull: because he broke shit, and didn't support old versions
Nov 25 05:57:56 <Bopp>	we: 
Nov 25 05:58:04 <Bopp>	1) won't break shit
Nov 25 05:58:05 <carsonfull>	Yeah same thing for us
Nov 25 05:58:09 <Bopp>	2) support old version
Nov 25 05:58:28 <Bopp>	carsonfull: respectfully disagree. it's completely different
Nov 25 05:58:48 <carsonfull>	If it's a major release we will break stuff
Nov 25 05:58:53 <gawainlynch>	OK… so if we were to go for major version bumps which one would target SF3?
Nov 25 05:58:58 <gawainlynch>	…Silex2
Nov 25 05:59:01 <Bopp>	carsonfull: no, we don't 
Nov 25 05:59:34 <carsonfull>	Bopp: youre saying do a major release without breaking BC?
Nov 25 05:59:40 <Bopp>	gawainlynch: for me, that depends when 2.8 final is out, and we can guesstimate when 3.0 will be out
Nov 25 05:59:52 <Bopp>	carsonfull: yes, i've said that a few times
Nov 25 06:00:07 <Bopp>	carsonfull: semver REQUIRES a major bump if you break BC.. 
Nov 25 06:00:18 <gawainlynch>	Bopp: I am guessing both will be out next week ;-)
Nov 25 06:00:22 <Bopp>	carsonfull: but, we CAN bump the major WITHOUT breaking BC
Nov 25 06:00:39 <gawainlynch>	carsonfull: Bopp is right on that one… 
Nov 25 06:00:50 <carsonfull>	Yes I don't disagree there
Nov 25 06:01:28 <carsonfull>	It's confusing to devs though 
Nov 25 06:01:30 <Bopp>	We're already half a year behind schedule on 2.3, 
Nov 25 06:02:04 <Bopp>	people will NOT appreciate if we start taking our jolly time to do a 2.4 and 2.5 before focusing on the 3.0
Nov 25 06:02:08 <slick0>	carsonfull: eh, devs know to be skeptical on version numbers on applications at this points… libs, however… :)
Nov 25 06:02:13 <carsonfull>	"Deprecated in 2.3, will be removed in 4.0"
Nov 25 06:02:33 <carsonfull>	Bopp: I disagree there
Nov 25 06:03:00 <carsonfull>	What are they expecting in 3.0 that couldn't be delivered in 2.4/5
Nov 25 06:03:10 <Bopp>	I completely see your point, and as a developer i agree with you.. 
Nov 25 06:03:26 <gawainlynch>	carsonfull: Unfortunately… "numbers"
Nov 25 06:03:28 <Bopp>	But, it's just NOT what i've been hearing from people actually using bolt
Nov 25 06:03:42 <Bopp>	.. and perhaps even more important: Why people are not using bolt
Nov 25 06:03:47 <gawainlynch>	To be fair, CA raised the same point with me a couple of times
Nov 25 06:03:58 <carsonfull>	OK that's a fair point
Nov 25 06:04:05 <carsonfull>	Same as angular 
Nov 25 06:04:33 <carsonfull>	At the same time 3.0 isn't a complete rewrite 
Nov 25 06:05:15 <Bopp>	carsonfull: that's not the point
Nov 25 06:05:46 <Bopp>	the point is: people want to see 3.0, and I want to make sure that happens before Q4 2016.
Nov 25 06:05:49 <gawainlynch>	OK… BPFL hat on here… we are 6 month or more late on 2.3… we need to keep the project "looking" like we're moving… I am suggesting that we drop 2.4 in favour of 3.0, 3.1 & maybe 3.2… and 4.0 will be the BC-breaker with SF3/Silex2
Nov 25 06:06:15 <gawainlynch>	Who is going to rage quit if I put a tiara down on that?
Nov 25 06:06:24 <Bopp>	I'm fine with that
Nov 25 06:06:29 <slick0>	gawainlynch: i like that
Nov 25 06:06:32 <gawainlynch>	rossriley: ?
Nov 25 06:06:32 <carsonfull>	I'll need some time 
Nov 25 06:06:46 <gawainlynch>	carsonfull: That's cool… let's hash it out over the next week
Nov 25 06:07:02 <Bopp>	SahAssar ?
Nov 25 06:07:03 <SahAssar2>	Sounds good.
Nov 25 06:07:12 <slick0>	SF3/Silex2, or SF3 MicroKernel?
Nov 25 06:07:18 *	slick0 waits for carsonfull's head to explode
Nov 25 06:07:27 <gawainlynch>	Sorry SahAssar… :-/
Nov 25 06:07:28 <Bopp>	slick0: Go home! You're drunk
Nov 25 06:07:30 <carsonfull>	If we are doing this we mind as well skip 2.3 and go straight to 3.0
Nov 25 06:07:34 <slick0>	Bopp: ;)
Nov 25 06:07:40 <Bopp>	carsonfull: nope, 2.3 is almost done! 
Nov 25 06:08:02 <carsonfull>	What's the difference?? It's just numbers 
Nov 25 06:08:08 <gawainlynch>	Well… just to confuse things… we could have some minor breaks if we follow carsonfull's suggestion
Nov 25 06:08:18 <gawainlynch>	have/allow
Nov 25 06:08:25 <Bopp>	although, you all know I've been saying for ages that _i_ think 2.3 should've been 3.0 with the amount of changes. 
Nov 25 06:08:44 <carsonfull>	^ exactly
Nov 25 06:08:44 <gawainlynch>	Bopp: Well, that is the thing… carsonfull has a fair point there
Nov 25 06:08:46 <SahAssar2>	gawainlynch: :D no offense, was mostly just listening :)
Nov 25 06:08:58 <Bopp>	but, i'm not about to start that discussion again, and i'm just going to put my vote behind gawainlynch's suggestion
Nov 25 06:09:01 <carsonfull>	Let's just make it easier for ourselves and break BC now
Nov 25 06:09:29 <gawainlynch>	carsonfull: Minor breaks I, personally, would be in favour of… but we both know we're not ready for the "big one"
Nov 25 06:09:33 <Bopp>	well, I could live with renaming 2.3 to 3 now, and doing a 3.1 and 3.2 if needed
Nov 25 06:09:39 <gawainlynch>	We need
Nov 25 06:09:56 <carsonfull>	Bopp: exactly
Nov 25 06:10:14 <SahAssar2>	so we are php6'ing 2.3?
Nov 25 06:10:23 <slick0>	i'm for it
Nov 25 06:10:38 <slick0>	SahAssar2: i love that you just verbed php6
Nov 25 06:10:44 <carsonfull>	It's conditional on breakage though
Nov 25 06:10:50 <rarilaDroid2>	SahAssar2: no, we are windows9ing it
Nov 25 06:10:57 <carsonfull>	That's my comprise
Nov 25 06:11:13 <gawainlynch>	OK… calling this particular topic closed for now, and we can all think about it between now and next Tuesday's meeting and as a group make a decision then… objections?
Nov 25 06:11:15 <Bopp>	carsonfull: i didn't get that. 
Nov 25 06:11:51 <carsonfull>	Like let's go straight to 3.0 but break what we are ready to break for it
Nov 25 06:11:59 <Bopp>	I can live with both gawain's and Carsons suggetions. 
Nov 25 06:12:27 <gawainlynch>	OK… can we think it though calmly over the next 7 days though… our release is not going to be ready before then either way
Nov 25 06:12:34 <Bopp>	ok
Nov 25 06:12:35 <gawainlynch>	*through 
Nov 25 06:12:41 <Bopp>	i'm shutting up now
Nov 25 06:13:04 <carsonfull>	Yep yep +1 from me 
Nov 25 06:13:10 <gawainlynch>	Haha… No, I just want to keep this productive and if we hash on too long… it might diverge
Nov 25 06:13:26 *	rarilaDroid2 does not care for politics, marketing and numbers - so whatever it will be, I'm fir it (I also like deprecatikns and BCs if it brings us ahead)
Nov 25 06:13:47 *	gawainlynch raises a beer mug to rarilaDroid2