Dev meeting 2016 10 18

Agenda

• How to better communicate things like deprecation and replacements among the team, c.f. {{ asset() }} (@GawainLynch)
• Testing of 3.2 beta and release of 3.2 RC. (@bob)
  • Blockers at #5686 (@bob)
• The road to 4.0 (@GawainLynch)
  • Branch development/4.0 circa 3.5 or 3.6
  • Continue minor feature development in 3.x
  • Continue minor & patch release in 3.x as needed
  • Prior we need to decided on what BC breaks are acceptable
    • Silex 2 / Symfony 3 / Pimple 3
    • ?

e.g.

• Status on drop bear invasion (@YourGitHubID)

Actionable Items

Outcomes

• Branching 4.0-dev soon and will be a long running branch (12+ months)
  • Continue feature development in 3.x
  • Continue minor & patch release in 3.x as needed
  • SPs to be later in cycle
  • Development branch will be about removing deprecation intially
• Team members agree to open issues for missing change documentation and coordinate with others to get things, um, documented
• 3.2.0-RC green light

Log

<gawainlynch> ping Bopp carsonfull gawainlynch phillipp rossriley SahAssar slick0 rixbeck rarila world+dog
<phillipp> here
<Bopp> pong world
<SahAssar> #pony here
* [BoltIssueBall] says "ZA̡͊͠͝LGΌ ISͮ̂҉̯͈͕̹̘̱ TO͇̹̺ͅƝ̴ȳ̳ TH̘Ë͖́̉ ͠P̯͍̭O̚​N̐Y̡ H̸̡̪̯ͨ͊̽̅̾̎Ȩ̬̩̾͛ͪ̈́̀́͘ ̶̧̨̱̹̭̯ͧ̾ͬC̷̙̲̝͖ͭ̏ͥͮ͟Oͮ͏̮̪̝͍M̲̖͊̒ͪͩͬ̚̚͜Ȇ̴̟̟͙̞ͩ͌͝S̨̥̫͎̭ͯ̿̔̀ͅ"
<gawainlynch> #karma SahAssar 
<[BoltIssueBall]> Sorry but karma can only be added for channel members, SahAssar isn't here and they lose out!
<gawainlynch> #karma SahAssar 
<[BoltIssueBall]> Sorry but karma can only be added for channel members, SahAssar isn't here and they lose out!
<gawainlynch> Oh, darn you Freenode
<gawainlynch> OK … presuming Ross is at the bar, and Carson is PRing… so let's roll
<carsonfull> o/
<gawainlynch> …or not :-D
<gawainlynch> Testing of 3.2 beta and release of 3.2 RC. (@bob)
<gawainlynch> Blockers at #5686 (@bob)
-[BoltIssueBall]/#boltcms- #5686 [open] [Tracker] Bolt 3.2 Release Blocking Issues https://github.com/bolt/bolt/issues/5686  — assigned to bobdenotter
<gawainlynch> Blockers are clear
<Bopp> Yes.. 
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Anything in your way for tagging an RC?
<Bopp> Yes, two things: 
<gawainlynch> Evening, rarilaDroid 
<Bopp> - compiling the changelog properly (I'd like some help with that)
<rarilaDroid>  Jo
<Bopp>  - writing a write-up for the website (i can handle that)
<Bopp> The changelog is pretty complex, because of all the merges and stuff between branches. 
<Bopp> as in, much noise
<gawainlynch> Bopp: I am going to respectfully decline on offering help on change log this time around … 13 hours into today, and I still haven't got to my first task
<Bopp> Could you help with that, gawainlynch?
<Bopp> Ah, ok
<rarilaDroid> Never change a running log
<SahAssar> Did a freenode node just crap out? 7 people just quit at the same time...
<Bopp> I guess so
<gawainlynch> Bopp: I know we have matching weeks, I am probably going to have to put in an all nighter tonight though 
<Bopp> Ok, I'll see if i can figure something out, then. 
<Bopp> It'll probably be tomorrow before I can put out the RC, then
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Ping me tomorrow, the easiest way I can think of is a git log for merges only and then remove "release" from the list
<Bopp> No worries, there's no immediate rugh
<Bopp> sure, let's do that. 
<gawainlynch> 3.2 has very little these days from 3.1 for example
<gawainlynch> I know I am dropping balls on that log update, just yeah, our weeks right now :-D
<Bopp> yeah, maybe it'll be less work than I think
<Bopp> I'll see how far I can get. 
<carsonfull> Freenode is tripping out for me. Ping me on slack if you need me
<gawainlynch> OK, one I was hoping Ross would be here for: How to better communicate things like deprecation and replacements among the team, c.f. {{ asset() }}
* Bopp pokes carsonfull
<carsonfull> arrgh
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Well, as we saw this week, the problem is not where you think
<phillipp> i would suggest a list in the docs or wiki
<gawainlynch> People are not reading PRs
<gawainlynch> But that is behind us, I am looking for a path forward 
<gawainlynch> Problem is, that the people making the changes are struggling to find time to do more … so what we need are simple solution s
<carsonfull> I'm planning on doing a write up for 3.3 that I was planning on mentioning that in
<carsonfull> Since I have a branch that deprecates ResourceManager completely
<Bopp> I _think_ the rule should be: We tell users what's in the docs matching the latest stable version. 
<gawainlynch> c.f. my grumpy (and unwarrented) outbursts 
<Bopp> If that means you notice someone telling someone something that's not "best practice", please flag it, open an issue, and we'll get the docs fixed! 
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Best idea I have heard yet!
<Bopp> I'm not saying everybody should document things all the time, especially if they're in flux.. Just flag and report, and we'll get it fixed. :-)
<gawainlynch> …and as we saw, you were able to help resolve that path thing as a result of taking that action :-)
<gawainlynch> Thanks mate, big smile here :-)
<Bopp> Sure, I just needed to know it needed fixing, as I was under the assumption it was a 3.3 thing
<carsonfull> Love it!
<gawainlynch> This leads into the next one very well… carsonfull you are going to want to chime in:
<gawainlynch> The road to 4.0
<Bopp> ok, agreed then
<gawainlynch> Branch development/4.0 circa 3.5 or 3.6?
<gawainlynch> Continue minor feature development in 3.x
<gawainlynch> Continue minor & patch release in 3.x as needed
<gawainlynch> Thoughts on those as a first step (Silex next, carsonfull)
<carsonfull> I don't want to move to silex 2.0 until we are done with features on 3.x branches
<gawainlynch> Basically … 4.0 is going to take time "baking"
<gawainlynch> carsonfull: Agreed… but it will take time
<carsonfull> Just as Symfony doesn't use short array syntax yet
<Bopp> I think we should reverse it.. Let's first see which are the "most urgent topics" and determine if those are breaking BC.. 
<gawainlynch> rossriley: Up to "The road to 4.0"
<carsonfull> Honestly. I'm fine branching for 4.0 right now. To remove stuff we've deprecated. But not for major refactors
<Bopp> If not, let's go forward with 3.3 and 3.x until we do need a "break" 
<Bopp> I'm not, right now.. It's too soon to start breaking all extensions again
<gawainlynch> Well my concern is … I, personally, don't want a 2.3/3.0-dev again 
<gawainlynch> Yes, but 4.0 will take 1+ years in dev
<carsonfull> I'm not saying stop release 3.x series. 
<Bopp> gawainlynch: is that an argument _for_ or _against_ branching for 4.0 at this time? 
<carsonfull> Just allow us to continue work on 4.0 instead of all at once. 
<gawainlynch> We have our branching sorted out now, and we can handle this quite well
<carsonfull> for: less work all at once. we can remove deprecated code as we deprecate it. 
<Bopp> So far, 3.2 is looking pretty good. 
<carsonfull> against: Just another branch to manage
<Bopp> and 3.3 is too
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Well, for I guess… what I don't want is a long running dev branch with a long running 2.2
<gawainlynch> That leads to pressure to "get it out"
<gawainlynch> carsonfull: I'm up to the task ;-)
<Bopp> If it's up to me, we do a 3.x, until we are failry sure we can do a _short_ branch/break to 4.0
<carsonfull> I say we branch now then. But that doesn't mean that's the "currently in dev branch" 
<gawainlynch> I don't think we're *yet* at the stage to branch, but 3 or 4 months and that is a different story potentially 
<gawainlynch> carsonfull: That is where I am going
<gawainlynch> …wiht this
<Bopp> as in, when we branch for 4.0, we should aim to have it out in 2 months.
<carsonfull> No that's the wrong mindset
<gawainlynch> Not … possible 
<carsonfull> 4.0 is alot of work, so waiting do to it all at once is not a good idea
<gawainlynch> That is *exactly* the stuff I want to avoid 
<gawainlynch> Can we move away from this thinking … it nearly destroyed the core team last time 
<gawainlynch> We need flow, and progress
<gawainlynch> …users want releases … let's give them that
<carsonfull> Bob I think what you _really_ want is releases every couple months. 
<Bopp> Perhaps that's it, yes.. 
<carsonfull> We can still branch for 4.0 and have 3.x releases every couple months
<gawainlynch> Exactly 
<Bopp> I don't want to stop the regular flow of releases to dry up for half a year. 
<gawainlynch> Hence what I am pointing to with our branching working well now
<carsonfull> Great. We are all in agreement then +1
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Also what I want to avoid :-)
<Bopp> ok, then we're all on the same page
<gawainlynch> Just means that we keep doing 3.x for *features* and such, the pretty things
<Bopp> sure. 
<gawainlynch> OK … well … I am going to ask that we think about what deprecations are acceptable over time
<gawainlynch> Let's pick that part up in a week or two
<Bopp> And, like, updating to Silex 2.0 and Symfony 3.1 is like just doing a few regexes on the service providers. 
<Bopp> like, right?
<gawainlynch> ;-)
<gawainlynch> Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah … nah
<gawainlynch> I've already started the branch… there is a lot of work just to get the SPs not crashing on register 
<Bopp> Shouldn't take you more than an hour or two, gawainlynch ;-)
<carsonfull> Yeah let's wait until we are working on 4.0 for dev to do that
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Touhcé
<carsonfull> Else any changes in 3.x are going to be a pain to re-do for 4.0 
<gawainlynch> carsonfull: I am thinking in terms of startiting to "think" what is *not* on the table
<gawainlynch> …and teaching Gawain how to type
<Bopp> carsonfull: Yeah, sure.. Bolt 3 should stay on SF 2.8 and Silex 1.x
<carsonfull> Yeah features and silex 2.0 are not on the table for 4.0.
<carsonfull> Right but keep the branches in sync is hard work if you do a huge change like silex 2.0
<gawainlynch> I didn't think we'd decided on Silex 2 yes/no yet
<carsonfull> Sorry I meant "not on the table for  4.0 until we are close to releasing it"
<carsonfull> Oh we haven't decided that 4.0 is going to be silex 2.0?
<Bopp> I think it'd make sense to do Silex 2 and SF 3 for Bolt 4 at the same time, right? 
<gawainlynch> Oh yes, SPs for example *must* wait … my point was that I have (as have you) invested time to gauge the amount of work
<Bopp> or do you want to spilt those, gawainlynch?
<Bopp> *split
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Yeah, but it breaks extensions
<gawainlynch> Some
<carsonfull> No they should be done together.
<gawainlynch> ^ also what carsonfull said
<carsonfull> But yes it could break extensions
<gawainlynch> Mostly mine :-D
<gawainlynch> Plus Twig ones
<Bopp> I think _some_ extension breakage would be unavoidable for 4.0
<gawainlynch> Yeah, that is SemVer for you :-)
<phillipp> but pimple 3 is nicer :)
<gawainlynch> OMG yes it is!
<Bopp> This is not f'ing WP.. we should accept breakage in BC if we want to keep moving forward
<gawainlynch> #karma Bopp 
<[BoltIssueBall]> Sorry but karma can only be added for channel members, Bopp isn't here and they lose out!
<gawainlynch> #karma Bopp 
<[BoltIssueBall]> Sorry but karma can only be added for channel members, Bopp isn't here and they lose out!
<carsonfull> YASSSSS 
<gawainlynch> Ugh
<carsonfull> Woot!
<carsonfull> Day = made
<Bopp> I'mma look up an article, one sec. 
<phillipp> actually, i dont think most extensions will have a problem porting from pimple 2 to pimple 3. only gawains extensions could be a bit more work xD
<gawainlynch> SahAssar: Anything on issues? I know you're mostly MIA atm though
<gawainlynch> phillipp:: Yep, and I can cover mine easily 
<SahAssar> nope... Basically wrapping up my project from hell though, so soon.
<gawainlynch> Cool … I was also hoping rossriley would be here, as I mentioned in #development … we need to start to draw a line soon on 3.3 work
<Bopp> https://buytaert.net/why-the-big-architectural-changes-in-drupal-8 <- Very nice article about why we _need_ to break occasionally. 
<gawainlynch> carsonfull: Yes, I know what you have coming btw, not blocking that, just don't want to head into 2.3 again 
<carsonfull> Yep yep
<gawainlynch> Actually, it would be good if your rossriley and I could update the roadmap respectively soon too
<gawainlynch> …for 3.3
<gawainlynch> …well 3.4 too where relevant/known 
<carsonfull> Sure I can do that soon
<phillipp> soon(tm)
<gawainlynch> Thanks mate, Ross is pretty damn good when prompted too, so I'll leave that up to him reading over this later
<gawainlynch> phillipp: Anything on your side to raise?
<gawainlynch> rarilaDroid: I presume you're still trying to catch up on real life work after the flu?
<phillipp> not really. things are going slowly, but at least a bit :)
<rarilaDroid> gawainlynch: yep
<gawainlynch> phillipp: Progress on the docs coming along?
<Bopp> phillipp: will yo be able to help out on the article to urge people to vote tomorrow?
<gawainlynch> rarilaDroid: I owe you an update on a few things too when I have some time, just haven't had … um … time :-)
<phillipp> gawainlynch: i am a lazy piece of shit, and tired. but i try to make something :)
<phillipp> Bopp: sure
<Bopp> Thanks! :-)
<gawainlynch> phillipp: You're good mate, we all have RL to handle first
<rarilaDroid> gawainlynch: also I'm in charge of bringing someone to bed, so only a half eye here atm, sorry
<gawainlynch> Just don't want you to feel like your work doesn't have a voice
<gawainlynch> rarilaDroid: You're a good dad :-)
<gawainlynch> OK … so anything else?
<Bopp> I'm happy Flysystem will stay on 5.5.9. :-)
<phillipp> yeah, Frank is the best1
<gawainlynch> Yeah, thanks for taking that one on Bopp 
<phillipp> *best!
<gawainlynch> SahAssar: Over to you mate ;-)
<Bopp> Forking that would've been less than fun. :-)
<carsonfull> Ok my turn to close meeting
<carsonfull> </meeting>
<Bopp> go for it!
<Bopp> hahaha
<phillipp> Bopp: you mean -fun? :P
<gawainlynch> Thank you all for coming, I'll be here all week