Dev meeting 2016 10 11

Agenda

• How did everyone's testing with the Bolt 3.2 beta go? ^_^ (@Bob)
• Targeting October 24 for release 3.2.0 (@GawainLynch)
• Reminder: Release-blocker tracker use (@GawainLynch)
• Packaging a normal install, and an optional "My webhost sucks" install, i.e everything in webroot 😦 (@GawainLynch)
• Request: Move/keep development "arguments" to #development on Slack, or on IRC — people don't need to (easily) see our dirty laundry, and get the wrong impression.
• Advocates — People who will advocate on behalf of each of our three target groups with-in the core team (@GawainLynch)
• Backend CSS work https://github.com/bolt/bolt/compare/master...refactor/splitting-up-backend-css (@GawainLynch)

e.g.

• Status on drop bear invasion (@YourGitHubID)

Actionable Items

• Look at packaging a "web host" version (@BdO)
• Look at a dual solution to HTML madness on docs (@BdO)
• RFC taxonomy/relationship changes for 4.x (@rossriely)

Outcomes

Log

<gawainlynch> ping Bopp1 rossriley carsonfull gawainlynch phillipp rarilaDroid rossriley slick0 rixbeck
<gawainlynch> etc
<Bopp1> ponh
<Bopp1> <g
<gawainlynch> Haha
<rarilaDroid> Brumm
<phillipp> here
<rossriley> here
<gawainlynch> OK, apologies on behalf of SahAssar … he has a tonne or RL to deal with
<gawainlynch> Let's roll
<gawainlynch> > How did everyone's testing with the Bolt 3.2 beta go? ^_^ (@Bob)
<carsonfull> Found bugs lol
<Bopp> Good! 
<gawainlynch> Me too … Bopp and I had a day of clean up ;-)
<Bopp> We've fixed a bunch already, 
<phillipp> will start my 2 bigger projects with the beta
<Bopp> So far, it looks good.. *fingers crossed*
<gawainlynch> OK … so Bopp has hinted at an RC next week … problems on anyone's radar?
<phillipp> *likes RC cars*
<Bopp> but everybody, please update things.. Dogfooding is important! :-)
<gawainlynch> i.e. Targeting October 24 for release 3.2.0 
<Bopp> RC next monday, release the monday after sounds good to me.. 
<gawainlynch> One related point … and to help SahAssar out… 
<gawainlynch> > Reminder: Release-blocker tracker use (@GawainLynch)
<Bopp> barring unforeseen showstoppers, that should be OK
<gawainlynch> Some koala's and related cohorts have dropped a bit of the ball there
<Bopp> Ok, will get back in the habit of keeping that up to date. 
<Bopp> We cleared it out, and then sort of forgotten about it, haha. 
<gawainlynch> Reminder mainly a slap the koala … but if you see an issue that is blocking, can we keep trackers in mind … makes everyone's job easier … and yes, koala's fualt ;-)
<[BoltGitHubBot]> [bolt] CarsonF closed issue #5891: Exception rendering exception template https://git.io/vP0Eb
<gawainlynch> Another one in that vein…
<gawainlynch> > Move/keep development "arguments" to #development on Slack, or on IRC — people don't need to (easily) see our dirty laundry, and get the wrong impression.
<gawainlynch> I am one of the worst offenders recently … but we can all help to better shape that one
<Bopp> *nods*
<gawainlynch> We have a #boltcms-dev here if ever needed too
<gawainlynch> But on review of my own conduct, I think we could all contribute to a better result :-)
<gawainlynch> This might require some context … but …
<gawainlynch> > > Advocates — People who will advocate on behalf of each of our three target groups with-in the core team
<gawainlynch> It would be awesome if we could try to (along with a mentioring approach generally) find some people who can "defend" each of the three groups 
<phillipp> do you have someone in mind?
<gawainlynch> I don't have any specific names right now, but it would be good to have people from the community at large that feel like they have some buy-in on effecting positive change for their group(s)
<gawainlynch> so mare a flag to "keep an eye out" if anyone has any bright ideas
<Bopp> The past week or two, Gawain and I talked about this.. It started after we decided we need people with different interests in mind to think about how to set up the installer and stuff. 
<Bopp> so far, we're putting in a best effort, but we're obviously biased, because we're too close. 
<Bopp> People who work _with_ bolt, but not _on_ bolt would be best.
<gawainlynch> e.g. People like Carson, Ross (though he's good at bridging that gap) and I are good at thinking of things in terms of how a BE mgiht feel, but we don't want to do that at the expense of the other groups
<gawainlynch> But it could/would be good to have people that can feel free to speak up and say "that's good for you, but we'd need X"
<gawainlynch> …and in turn we have sounding boards for this stuff to sanity check things
<rossriley> well I certainly don’t mind putting myself forward for helping out
<gawainlynch> rossriley: BE specifically, or one of the other two?
<rossriley> Back end obviously… but I also manage the other side for various clients too,
<rossriley> so I can always feed in some insights from that perspective too
<gawainlynch> rossriley: I have zero objections to either … my honest concern is that FE's and editors are under represented
<Bopp> I'm fine with being the imterim-person for that. 
<rossriley> well I’m happy to act as a bridge for those two then
<Bopp> But, as I mentioned, ideally it'd be someone from outside the core team
<gawainlynch> To that end, would you like to take lead on one of those groups, with your own succession plan (at your own design) to bridg… WFM :-)
<Bopp> okido
<gawainlynch> I feel that too, Bopp … c.f. succession plan … but it would be good to have people to get thing moving
<gawainlynch> But things like succession should be managed by the person that takes on the responsibility IMHO … but also happy to assist any of those people too
<gawainlynch> So next one is kinda tricky-ish
<gawainlynch> > Packaging a normal install, and an optional "My webhost sucks" install, i.e everything in webroot
<Bopp> we have a package.sh. 
<gawainlynch> rossriley: This is one in particular I'd like your feedback on
<Bopp> it should be fairly easy to make.. 
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Yes, ease of creation is one thing … but is it a good fit
<Bopp> but, we're trying to _reduce_ the amount of different ways to install Bolt, right?
<gawainlynch> Correct
<phillipp> with shitty webhosts all over the place, we dont have much options to reduce the installation types
<gawainlynch> But going to many previous points, there are things that people are struggling with 'cause too many BEs :-)
<Bopp> Although, it _will_ help out a ton of poor souls. 
<gawainlynch> I am *not* the person to advocate for those people … Too much CDO :-D
<rossriley> where’s the package.sh script?
<gawainlynch> https://github.com/bolt/bolt-distribution
<gawainlynch> phillipp: Do you have any thoughts on this?
<NextToNothing> composer is the best installation type imo. Not hard to symlink public_html to /bolt/web/ in cPanel, either ;)
<Bopp> I use that script to package the release builds
<gawainlynch> rossriley: Specifically package.sh is the root generation mech.
<phillipp> well, if it helps people and reduce bad experience with the first steps of using bolt
<gawainlynch> NextToNothing: Yes, and most/all BEs will agree … but it chokes too many of the other two groups… hard :-)
<Bopp> NextToNothing: For a lot of people, yes.. However we're trying to keep the less tech-savvy devs in mind
<Bopp> NextToNothing: Curious about "the three groups"? check #manifesto ;-)
<[BoltIssueBall]> Bolt manifesto available at https://docs.bolt.cm/other/manifesto
<gawainlynch> NextToNothing: Welcome to the discussion btw :-)
<gawainlynch> Bopp: This is one for you to start off on … as it ties into why I was hoping we'd get both slick0 & SahhAsar here tonight, but we can catch them up…
<gawainlynch> > Backend CSS work https://github.com/bolt/bolt/compare/master...refactor/splitting-up-backend-css
<Bopp> ok.. 
<gawainlynch> Can you run us over your plan, as I'd like to formalise something … I'll happily lead the PM, but the work is requiring "not Gawain" :-)
<Bopp> The plan is to gradually work towards a state where we can both update the backend to a new version of bootstrap, as well as allow theming.
<Bopp> we're taking a step-by-step approach to that, now:
<Bopp>  - Split up all the CSS into _structural_ and _visual_ styles. 
<Bopp>  - then update to Bootstrap 4
<Bopp>  - Next, update the structural CSS to work with that. 
<Bopp>  - Work on the visual CSS. 
<Bopp> after that, we'll have a realtively decoupled CSS for visuals, 
<gawainlynch> FWIW: The tie in, is an increasing cabal behind, and working, on — https://github.com/bolt/bolt/compare/master...GawainLynch:feature/modular-backend — that branch is *not* going to land as-is but is a space to iron out some of the business logic that is hampering all of this
<Bopp> and we can let people modify that, without breaking too much
<Bopp> That's basically the plan for right now.. 
<Bopp> But, it'll be a ton of work for Derk and me.
<gawainlynch> Bopp: How are you willing to collaborate on moving that forward, and who can provide what to drive it?
<rossriley> Bopp: are you thinking about a Twig refactor as part of it?
<phillipp> isnt gawain doing the twig refactor? :D
<gawainlynch> rossriley: I've already started in above branch … and cut 40-50% off BE loads
<Bopp> I'm fine with collaborating. 
<gawainlynch> You won't see all of that in what is pushed … the caching isn't committed yet
<Bopp> I'm just not sure if right now is the best time for that.. 
<Bopp> rossriley: Not really.. not right now at least.. I'd really like to sort out the CSS first, and refactor twig things later..
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Maybe not for commits, but it would be good to get people feeling like that have place in the progression 
<Bopp> Of course, it _will_ fit in nicely with gawains refactoring
<rossriley> cool ok
<gawainlynch> What I *don't* want to happen, is that we get another 2 years down the track and have to pick up another project to move things along
<Bopp> Thing is, the _less_ you can see happening, the _better_ it's going. :-)
<Bopp> gawainlynch: Nope, won't happen. I promise 
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Not in terms of team play
<gawainlynch> (my point relative to visibilty)
* gawainlynch can't English 
<gawainlynch> rossriley: I'd also be very keen to get feedback on the DTO work in above branch … it is key to the Twig stuff
<gawainlynch> src/Response/ for now … 'cause it has to live somewhere … for now :-)
<rossriley> yes ok, I shall have a look
<gawainlynch> rossriley: The model is built around REST
<gawainlynch> There (currently) is a simple REST controller for my own monkey testing … but it opens a door on a lot of things
<gawainlynch> … and rips so much out of Twig already 
<phillipp> stop talking about it gawain, otherwise i want it right now! :D
<gawainlynch> But the bigger problem is that we're still heavily stacked on BE talent
<gawainlynch> and I really don't think that Bopp and Derk should pull that part off on their own … for their own sanity's sake 
<Bopp> Nope. :-)
<rossriley> just need to fire some clients
<gawainlynch> I don't think anyone is going to argue that you have lead on that Bopp … but getting more hands/minds on deck can only help :-)
<gawainlynch> rossriley: Can I get you to do that for me too ;-)
<gawainlynch> Darn clients
<gawainlynch> OK … so … agenda cleared … over to you all … does anyone have things to raise… feedback not yet given on above?
<Bopp> yes, me! 
<Bopp> two things! 
<rossriley> at some point I want us to have an RFC discussion on how we can streamline relationships / taxonomies for next major version
<rossriley> but prob best we do that on Github rather than here
<Bopp> 1: carsonfull: How's my PR coming along. 
<gawainlynch> #karma rossriley 
<[BoltIssueBall]> Sorry but karma can only be added for channel members, rossriley isn't here and they lose out!
<gawainlynch> #karma rossriley 
<[BoltIssueBall]> Sorry but karma can only be added for channel members, rossriley isn't here and they lose out!
<carsonfull> For docs?
* gawainlynch slaps [BoltIssueBall] 
<Bopp> carsonfull: yes, for the listings ;-)
<carsonfull> Almost done. Didn't get a chance to work on it last night. 
<Bopp> Ok, cool.. Just keeping the pressure on a tiny bit. ;-)
<carsonfull> I have a deadline today-ish so it's taking priority
<gawainlynch> carsonfull: Speaking of things … no hints from here, but anything you want to mention ;-)
<Bopp> point 2: https://github.com/bolt/docs/pull/517 breaks shit.. We should revert it. 
<Bopp> For example: https://docs.bolt.cm/3.1/templating/building-templates#template-tags
<[BoltIssueBall]> Templates documentation is available at https://docs.bolt.cm/templating/building-templates
<Bopp> Take a look at the hash in that link, and see where browser shows the page. 
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Then do we need to adjust our docs?
<Bopp> no, we need to revert that PR, it's how HTML works
<gawainlynch> I'm not going to push anything past "It makes life better" for a lot of people
<Bopp> no, it breaks shit. 
<Bopp> you can't deeplink to specific sections. 
<gawainlynch> So does old behaviour 
<Bopp> yes, you could link to sections before
<carsonfull> Could have event listeners for keydown instead?
<Bopp> in fact, it even breaks algolia _itself_
<gawainlynch> And the old behaviour was broken too
<Bopp> why? what was broken? 
<phillipp> i am fine with reverting then. stupid html.
<gawainlynch> Sorry … I know I stay the heck out of UX for a reason… but there is not a site on earth I use that I can think of that I go to for docs that doesn't have focus on a search box
<Bopp> Did you click that link? https://docs.bolt.cm/3.1/templating/building-templates#template-tags 
<[BoltIssueBall]> Templates documentation is available at https://docs.bolt.cm/templating/building-templates
<gawainlynch> Bopp: Yes, and I agree that both are broken
<gawainlynch> That isn't what I am raising 
<gawainlynch> OMG … 7 attempts to spell "raising"
<Bopp> The other day I made a list of a dozen docs sites for other projects..
<carsonfull> Can it be done in js instead?
<Bopp> https://www.evernote.com/l/AAFPnreheRFBirv9zEUDExPlsfbs6ZUHe1I
<gawainlynch> ^
<Bopp> I will take a look at what they're doing, and PR a working fix. 
<phillipp> carsonfull: i think JS will end the same. boy gets focus, browser doesnt scroll down
<gawainlynch> Thanks mate :-)
<phillipp> *box
<gawainlynch> Bopp: I will 100% agree that what you point to is *not* acceptable behaviour
<phillipp> and sorry that i didnt check that
<Bopp> No worries, stuff like that happens.. I'll work on a fix.
<carsonfull> Still works for me on android :P
<gawainlynch> But if we could find a way to make it work for all, haven't we won all around?
<carsonfull> Yes. Just poking
<gawainlynch> OK … heading towards the 60 minute mark …again :-D
<Bopp> yes, I'll work on it. 
<gawainlynch> Voices for the mist?
<gawainlynch> …and who'd like honours in SahAssar's absence?
<phillipp> }
<phillipp> :troll:
<Bopp> :-)
<carsonfull> :clap: for no xml
<gawainlynch> rossriley: Are we the only two adults here ;-)
<phillipp> :D
<gawainlynch> </humour> 
<phillipp> i know you laughed gawain xD
<gawainlynch> ;-)
<gawainlynch> phillipp: Have you closed a meeting yet?
<phillipp> only the json way :D
<gawainlynch> Touché
* gawainlynch hands the baton to phillipp 
<phillipp> you want me to write xml, right? :P
<phillipp> </meeting>