Dev meeting 2017 10 17

Agenda

• 3.4.0 beta (@GawainLynch)
  • milestone 3.4 / Blocking issues

e.g.

• Status on drop bear invasion (@YourGitHubID)

Actionable Items

Outcomes

Log

[19:30] 
gawainlynch @ping @atat @ping @lukesywalker … oh wait


[19:31] 
ping @bob @U094H6T5H @lenvanessen @ross @sahassar @el.


[19:31] 
ross checking in


[19:31] 
bob pong!


[19:31] 
sahassar is suspecting that gawain accidentally proved that he is cheating on us with other developers.


[19:31] 
lenvanessen Pong


[19:31] 
bob
:thinking_face:

[19:32] 
gawainlynch @sahassar Funny you should say that


[19:32] 
OK, so there is no agenda up… and I've been a larger-than-usual pain in the arse

[19:32] 
There is a reason …


[19:33] 
This specifically isn't "Bolt", but it does carry our branding:
- https://www.eventbrite.nl/e/tickets-maintainerati-unconference-amsterdam-39008825447
- https://github.com/maintainerati/site/pull/7

[19:34] 
Welcome to the last couple of months of my life :slightly_smiling_face: (edited)

[19:35] 
bob
Coolio


[19:35] 
gawainlynch So, if anyone wants to come to NL next month and hang out with a bunch of OSS maintainer …

[19:35] 
bob
btw, SERIOUSLY?!

[19:35] 
19 nov!?

[19:35] 
DUDE

[19:35] 
gawainlynch The "official" public announcement will be tomorrow-ish

[19:35] 
Yeah … it started months ago

[19:35] 
bob https://clujcon2017.symfony.com/


[19:36] 
gawainlynch
It has been highly problematic

[19:36] 
bob It's probably to late to ask for it to be moved a week backwards, right? :wink:

[19:36] 
sahassar Cool!

[19:36] 
gawainlynch The single most stressful thing I have ever undertaken (edited)

[19:37] 
but now you all know

[19:37] 
… So … Bolt!

[19:37] 
3.4 … Bob

[19:37] 
bob Ok, we've had a few betas now, and I think i can do another one tomorrow.

[19:38] 
"Can" as in "There's enough changes to warrant one", imho

[19:39] 
but, what should we aim for, here? Push harder towards 3.4.0 stable? Or keep refining 3.4 so we'll have an excellent release?

[19:39] 
lenvanessen
I’d say do one more beta

[19:40] 
I’ve seen some things in late beta versions, like selects not working in named repeaters, that make me feel like we need polish of a few more things before shipping stable

[19:40] 
bob
@lenvanessen Ok.. If you see weird things in the beta, please open issues for it though..

[19:40] 
lenvanessen Nout did

[19:41] 
He works here at wirelab;)

[19:41] 
bob I think it's a universal "Can't see the trees through the forest"-thing, where I might miss pretty obvious issues, because i'm too much on top of it

[19:41] 
Ah, great.

[19:41] 
gawainlynch No issue open, no problem exists :wink:

[19:42] 
lenvanessen
Haha okay true

[19:42] 
I’ll rest my case

[19:42] 
bob
and please, please don't think "This is so obvious, they will surely know about it"


[19:42] 
gawainlynch Issue == fix

[19:42] 
lenvanessen
I know:)

[19:44] 
gawainlynch OK, so past beta and giving Len :shit: … issues to raise?

[19:44] 
ross didn't I get that one in #7082

[19:44] 
boltissueball #7082 [closed] [3.4] Fix select values in new named repeater blocks https://github.com/bolt/bolt/pull/7082

[19:44] 
bob
I think it was just used as an example, and the issue has been fixed

[19:44] 
lenvanessen Haha, :poop: deep into an app release at the moment so haven’t been near bolt this week


[19:45] 
Looking at it now, yes fixed:) (edited)

[19:45] 
bob in other news: I'm quite liking Vue+Webpack+Symfony Encore. That's going in Bolt for certain.

[19:45] 
gawainlynch
I want Lavarel!

[19:45] 
bob Expect the first bits of that to go in 3.5

[19:45] 
gawainlynch
`</obvious joke>`

[19:46] 
bob :face_with_rolling_eyes: (edited)

[19:47] 
gawainlynch
Oh, that reminds me … there were some legitimate concerns raised by Carson about naming in the bundles PRs

[19:47] 
carson Hi I’m here. Sorry

[19:47] 
gawainlynch
Carson, want to lead on concerns?


[19:50] 
carson I just think it’s confusing to have a separate name / concept from “extensions”. I’ve always referred to them as “bundled extensions” because they are still extensions they are just loaded differently. They are loaded under the _extensions_ key in `.bolt.yml`. The class extends an `Extension` class. The config file is in the _extensions_ folder. I just feel like another name is confusing. Not to mention Symfony already has the “bundle” concept.


[19:51] 
gawainlynch
And SF Bundles are what our "extensions" are?

[19:52] 
carson Yes that too.

[19:53] 
gawainlynch
FWIW the delineation is meant as branding, they are introduced as "bundled extensions, aka bundles" … the use of "bundles" only serves as simplicity, no? (edited)

[19:54] 
… also SF has moved away from bundles for v4

[19:54] 
bob
Personally, i have never had someone voice their confusion between Bolt's "bundled extensions" and Symfony's Bundles.

[19:55] 
The major confusion (again, imho) has been the move from "Local extension" to "Bundles",

[19:55] 
and the _Better_ we market them as bundles, the easier it is for people to grok

[19:55] 
gawainlynch Yes, but Carson's point is not about what we hear, rather what people are likely to expect


[19:55] 
bob
of course, but i don't really recognize the concern.


[19:56] 
gawainlynch
> The major confusion (again, imho) has been the move from "Local extension" to "Bundles",


^ this has largely been what I have heard too (edited)

[19:56] 
bob
it's a valid point, but I do think we're on the right track with "Bundled Extensions"

[19:56] 
carson I also understand that it can be confusing that extensions are installed “this way” (through web/cli), and bundled extensions are written by you.

[19:57] 
bob
"Bolt used to have local extensions, now we have bundled extensions", to which most people respond with "Oh, ok, that makes sense"

[19:58] 
I personally have not had that experience, @carson

[19:58] 
as in, nobody told me they do.

[19:58] 
carson Then I guess I don’t understand where the confusion is and why need “bundles”

[19:59] 
I am in favor of “bundled extensions”

[19:59] 
gawainlynch People need difference

[19:59] 
Oh, and we all are

[19:59] 
carson And I agree with @bob wrt local -> bundled

[19:59] 
gawainlynch
That isn't the point

[19:59] 
bob The area where there _is_ confusion is that the "old" local extensions changed.

[19:59] 
gawainlynch
But is is wrong to abbreviate?

[19:59] 
carson I think so (edited)

[19:59] 
gawainlynch
You do, others will do it anyway

[20:00] 
That's the point

[20:00] 
It doesn't matter what we "want" people to think :confused:

[20:00] 
They are human and make their own decision

[20:01] 
gawainlynch
is running a conference on this in a month if you want to come ;-)

[20:01] 
carson Haha ofc. That’s the whole point of the guides.

[20:01] 
The docs should communicate clearly. Of course I abbreviate here in chat

[20:02] 
gawainlynch Yeah, but you can't force all modes … some yes, but not all (edited)

[20:02] 
carson And if they don’t read the docs then how do they know that “bundles” are short for “bundled extensions”

[20:02] 
gawainlynch Carson, can you Short Message Service me a better idea?

[20:03] 
carson Idk where you’re getting this “force users” concept. Ofc we can’t force anything, that was never the point

[20:03] 
gawainlynch Oh, just in that people will understand what they want to

[20:03] 
Not so much that we "force" them

[20:03] 
carson `SiteExtension` or `MyCustomizationsExtension`

[20:04] 
gawainlynch
Just that we can't try and dictate what they _will_ understand

[20:05] 
The latter definitely looses in experience of *dealing* with users … doesn't make me like them for thinking like that

[20:06] 
But they will follow "black and white"

[20:06] 
carson Well that was my two cents. I’ve had less exp with novices so carry on :+1:

[20:06] 
gawainlynch
M'kay :slightly_smiling_face: (edited)

[20:06] 
3 attempts to type that … :epic_fail:

[20:07] 
Thing is, your opinions is worth arguing out

[20:07] 
But let us all move on

[20:07] 
Flags, icy poles, etc, to raise?

[20:08] 
bob In my opinion, which is what we're working towards, is that people don't give a damn about what something is called

[20:08] 
as long as it's sensible, and consistent, and it fits in a mental model

[20:08] 
gawainlynch Carson, we are now calling Bob, "boB" (edited)

[20:09] 
bob
And, that's what we're making a good improvement on with 3.4's changes.. A solid example that shipt with it, and document it more clearly.

[20:09] 
:stuck_out_tongue:

[20:09] 
carson boB consistency is hard

[20:09] 
bob nothing else to raise from me..

[20:09] 
:hear_no_evil: <- it me


[20:10] 
carson Do we need to update UI’s and code to refer to “bundles” instead of “bundled extensions”?


[20:10] 
gawainlynch
No

[20:10] 
That is all part of the point, it is subtle semantics


[20:11] 
We call them, and introduce them as, "Bundled Extensions" … your point is 100% solid


[20:11] 
All we're debating is, the validity of also using a short version

[20:11] 
carson Ok


[20:11] 
Nothing more from me then :slightly_smiling_face:


[20:12] 
gawainlynch
I know 2c … just don't underestimate how important your point is

[20:12] 
(really!)


[20:12] 
(even Ross is cheering … for … :beers: )

[20:13] 
carson Well that’s why I took the time to express it :slightly_smiling_face: Speaking of :beer: I need a :burger: :food: (come on slack give me something lol)

[20:14] 
gawainlynch
Dude! It's 1 PM, that is Vodka time, not :beers:

[20:14] 
Enjoy


[20:14] 
bob
:burrito:


[20:14] 
gawainlynch #someone-to-do-the-something

[20:15] 
#1555

[20:15] 
boltissueball warns gawainlynch that #1555 nearly caused the end of the known universe and should never be mentioned again


[20:15] 
gawainlynch
#expletive

[20:15] 
carson :burrito:


[20:15] 
#meeting

[20:15] 
boltissueball </meeting> Failed parsing XML: 'hug' expected, No 'love' shown for bot. Program 'meeting' terminated.