IrcLog2009 03 04

William Deegan edited this page Jan 14, 2016 · 2 revisions
17:08:02  *      Jason_at_intel (n=[chatzill@bementil-116.illinois.prairieinet.net](mailto:chatzill@bementil-116.illinois.prairieinet.net)) has joined #scons 
17:13:52  *      garyo-home (n=[chatzill@209-6-158-38.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com](mailto:chatzill@209-6-158-38.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com)) has joined #scons 
17:24:15  *      [GregNoel](GregNoel) is no longer marked as being away 
17:24:17  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Hi, Gary; I'm here, too; we can start as soon as Steven arrives 
17:24:26  <garyo-home>   Hi, Greg. 
17:25:03  <Jason_at_intel>       hi all 
17:25:09  <garyo-home>   Hi, Jason. 
17:25:12  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I see you've been marking up the spreadsheet; good work. 
17:25:25  <garyo-home>   Just barely in time :-) 
17:25:45  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Better than trying to do it on the fly. 
17:26:04  <garyo-home>   yup 
17:32:04  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Where are you, Steven? 
17:34:47  <garyo-home>   Since Steven's not here yet, Greg I'll ask you about 2357 and [ListLike](ListLike).  Is that mostly like CLVar? 
17:35:48  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Mostly, but the devil is in the details.  I'm proposing that once you mark a variable as list-like, it can't be overridden by assignment. 
17:36:14  <garyo-home>   That sounds cool, is it doable in python? 
17:36:40  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     (And I'm proposing a newCLVar class with slightly different semantics) 
17:36:55  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Well, it's doable, but I don't yet know about fast. 
17:37:24  <Jason_at_intel>       Can i ask what teh point of CLVar is ? 
17:37:36  <garyo-home>   I do like the env.[ListLike](ListLike)(key) rather than env['KEY'] = CLVar() 
17:38:22  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     My thought was to make _dict a class rather than a dict, and then use property() to catch the assignments. 
17:38:33  <garyo-home>   CLVar is a list that uses Split() to split an initial string along 
17:38:35  <garyo-home>   white-space arguments, and similarly to split any strings that get 
17:38:36  <garyo-home>   added.  This allows us to Do the Right Thing with Append() and 
17:38:38  <garyo-home>   Prepend() (as well as straight Python foo = env['VAR'] + 'arg1 
17:38:39  <garyo-home>   arg2') regardless of whether a user adds a list or a string to a 
17:38:41  <garyo-home>   command-line construction variable. 
17:38:42  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I've mocked up something that _almost_ works, but I haven't timed it. 
17:39:11  <garyo-home>   Greg: I see, that sounds workable (not that I understand the details) 
17:39:41  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Neither to I; that's why it _almost_ works. {;-} 
17:39:42  <Jason_at_intel>       ahh.. I have been just using it as a list .. ie env['LINKFLAGS'].extend([stuff...]) 
17:39:43  <garyo-home>   Greg: notice that CLVar already has quoting issues.  Quoting rears its ugly head again! 
17:40:28  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Yep, newCLVar is part of the [SubstQuoteEscape](SubstQuoteEscape), et.al., proposal 
17:40:37  <garyo-home>   Jason: part of the problem is that not everything is a CLVar, and the other part as Greg said is that assigning to it kills the CLVarness. 
17:40:43  <garyo-home>   Greg: good. 
17:41:27  <Jason_at_intel>       I see, will this require python 3.0 ( the need to use properties) 
17:41:40  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2.2 
17:41:55  <Jason_at_intel>       2.2 has properties? 
17:42:06  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     yup 
17:42:08  <Jason_at_intel>       must have missed that 
17:42:26  <Jason_at_intel>       learn something new.. how do you say it? 
17:42:37  <sohail>       doesn't Python have the <ins>assign</ins> function 
17:42:54  <sohail>       or not 
17:42:56  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     sohail, not on variables 
17:42:58  *      sohail goes back to idling 
17:43:22  <garyo-home>   Hi Sohail! 
17:43:37  <sohail>       hi garyo-home ! 
17:43:42  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Steven, where are you? 
17:43:55  <garyo-home>   the $64,000 question. 
17:43:59  *      sohail is actually now being called to DINNER!!!!!!!! bbl 
17:44:59  <garyo-home>   If Steven doesn't show up, should we just enter the consensus ones for now and reconvene later in the week? 
17:48:00  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     garyo-home, re Steven, yes, let's whip through what we can. 
17:48:43  *      [GregNoel](GregNoel) brb 
17:48:43  <garyo-home>   Greg: yes, it's getting late, let's just accept the obvious ones. 
17:49:06  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     1752 is first; brb 
17:49:55  <garyo-home>   1752: not obvious, but everyone seems to say 2.x p3 stevenknight so that's it. 
17:50:49  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     (I'm back) done 
17:51:06  <garyo-home>   2124: azverkan ok w/ you Greg? 
17:51:08  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2124: TaskmasterNG should make it easy to use worker threads for something like this, but it should be selectable, since it's not needed on a Real Operating System(TM) 
17:51:32  <garyo-home>   worker threads may be faster in all cases though. 
17:51:40  <garyo-home>   anyway, 2.x p3 azverkan? 
17:51:46  <Jason_at_intel>       what is the issue here? 
17:52:02  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Yes, Brandon should be fine, although we should check with him, since he took so long to research it. 
17:52:04  <garyo-home>   Jason: you'll have to read it, it's complicated. 
17:52:22  <garyo-home>   race conditions. 
17:52:22  <Jason_at_intel>       ok.. have threading background ( to much of it) 
17:52:40  <garyo-home>   you'll love reading the bug report then :-)( 
17:52:55  <garyo-home>   ok, let's say 2124 is done then. 
17:52:46  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     1594, 1849 consensus +java 
17:53:03  <garyo-home>   greg: agreed. 
17:53:25  <garyo-home>   1874: I'll document it, why not. 
17:53:37  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done, more power to you 
17:53:43  <garyo-home>   anytime p5 garyo 
17:54:04  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     1905, I think it needs a higher priority if it's going in future. 
17:54:10  <garyo-home>   1905: is [StarMerge](StarMerge) needed for your idea, or does it just make it better? 
17:54:38  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I think it should be a separate issue (in fact, split in three) 
17:54:47  <garyo-home>   If it's yours you can pick a priority. 
17:54:56  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     p2 then; done 
17:55:26  <garyo-home>   1970: I don't have ideas on the keyword name yet 
17:55:38  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     1970, I think we need Steven for this one 
17:55:43  <garyo-home>   ok, leave it. 
17:55:49  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     next time it is 
17:56:09  <garyo-home>   2153: steven 1.3/2.0/2.1 p2, pick one? 
17:56:26  <garyo-home>   I presume he means try for 1.3, else ... 
17:56:35  <Jason_at_intel>       I think this is part of the VS revamp 
17:56:44  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I like 2.1 or even 2.2, since 1.3 is already too full and 2.0 is just for the conversion 
17:56:47  <garyo-home>   2153?  I don't think so 
17:56:55  <garyo-home>   Greg: agreed. 
17:56:58  <garyo-home>   2.1 is fine. 
17:57:02  <Jason_at_intel>       it effect the mslink 
17:57:07  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
17:57:21  <garyo-home>   mslink uses it, but it's its own separate thing really. 
17:57:42  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2288, invalid, consensus 
17:57:42  <Jason_at_intel>       agreed on that.. I guess patches show it can be worked around 
17:57:59  <garyo-home>   2288 invalid 
17:58:23  <Jason_at_intel>       2288 is a misunderstand of what Install() does 
17:58:23  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2291, need Steven, since he's the 'compat' expert 
17:58:55  <garyo-home>   2291: defer 
17:59:02  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
17:59:28  <garyo-home>   2351: Greg you're right it hasn't bit anyone that we know of, but still it's really wrong. 
17:59:52  <Jason_at_intel>       windows is case insentitive, but 
17:59:58  <Jason_at_intel>       case preserving 
18:00:13  <garyo-home>   I think all it needs is a _dict that has the right semantics. 
18:00:15  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     True, but 2.x is _very_ crowded; we have to start cutting some 
18:00:19  <Jason_at_intel>       if the case is lost certain programs can get upset 
18:00:40  <garyo-home>   jason: right, preserve the case, just case-fold the comparisons. 
18:00:58  <garyo-home>   Greg: I see your point. 
18:01:20  <garyo-home>   Maybe you're right, 3.x is OK. 
18:01:36  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I don't have a WAG about how much effort it would take, so I'm erring on the conservative side 
18:01:36  <garyo-home>   Wish we had more devs. 
18:01:59  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     garyo-home, concur, more devs needed badly 
18:01:56  <garyo-home>   A half a day here, half a day there adds up to a lot. 
18:02:17  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     "A million here, a million there..." 
18:02:25  <garyo-home>   :-) 
18:02:36  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Let's defer it 
18:02:44  <garyo-home>   I'm ok w/ that 
18:02:49  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
18:03:00  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2352, consensus 
18:03:06  <garyo-home>   2352 1.3 p2 steven (+vs_revamp) 
18:03:28  <Jason_at_intel>       Steven is workign on it.. last he said he want to factor out if statements 
18:03:32  <Jason_at_intel>       talked about how to do it 
18:03:36  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Good point, +vs_revamp 
18:03:41  <Jason_at_intel>       I think he has it under control 
18:03:53  <garyo-home>   I'll be happy to help retest 
18:03:58  <garyo-home>   2353 is really simple 
18:04:08  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2353, who? 
18:04:33  <garyo-home>   me I guess. 
18:04:46  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     OK, if you're sure. 
18:05:02  <garyo-home>   can't be hard, just need to get the time. 
18:05:24  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     "Ask me for anything except time..." 
18:05:37  <garyo-home>   Nice quote, who's that from? 
18:05:43  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2.x or 2.1? 
18:05:47  <garyo-home>   2.x. 
18:05:51  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
18:06:12  <garyo-home>   2354, +toolchain and defer? 
18:06:44  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2354, yes: I'll look up what the other toolchain issues are 
18:06:53  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     for milestone and priority 
18:06:59  <Jason_at_intel>       why assume it exists? 
18:07:19  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2355, defer 
18:07:26  <garyo-home>   jason: are you talking about 2355?  Yes, defer. 
18:07:34  <Jason_at_intel>       54 
18:07:41  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
18:07:44  <garyo-home>   Sorry, 2354! 
18:07:59  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2356, consensus 
18:08:06  <Jason_at_intel>       yes ... 2355 was quick to resolve 
18:08:36  <garyo-home>   2356 agreed. 
18:08:46  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
18:08:57  <garyo-home>   2357, Greg I think you're the man here. 
18:09:22  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Yeah, I'm afraid so, but it needs a bit of discussion.  Let's defer it. 
18:09:26  <garyo-home>   ok. 
18:11:55  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     garyo-home, "anything except time" is Napoleon; missed the question above 
18:12:10  <garyo-home>   cool. 
18:10:01  <garyo-home>   2358: I like the +swig keyword, otherwise 2.1 p2 swig-expert 
18:10:23  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2358, +swig, but 2.1 would need a draft choice 
18:10:41  <garyo-home>   (Might not actually require swig knowledge, just create the dir first or something) 
18:10:44  <garyo-home>   ok, 2.x? 
18:11:02  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     We made the +java future p1; I think that's reasonable; pull them in when the expert shows up 
18:11:51  <garyo-home>   usually I'd agree, but this issue may not really need a swig expert. 
18:13:28  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I think it does require SWIG knowledge.  The last patch I almost applied would have made a mess, but somebody showed up who knew that the .wrap.c file was created only if there was a certain option in the .i file 
18:11:54  <Jason_at_intel>       agreed.. the compiler can do different thing here 
18:13:59  <garyo-home>   hmm, who was that? 
18:14:29  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I was looking earlier; I've lost the name. 
18:12:48  <garyo-home>   for instance, the swig builder could just get a "mkdir -p $OUTDIR" prepended. 
18:13:06  <garyo-home>   I'm not volunteering, just saying it might work. 
18:13:21  <garyo-home>   (sorry, $SWIGOUTDIR). 
18:14:28  <garyo-home>   well anyway, I guess I'm ok with future p1 +swig. 
18:15:00  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Your point is good; I'm changing my mind. 
18:15:15  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Give it to me as research and I'll try harder to find the name. 
18:15:24  <garyo-home>   ok, that works for me. 
18:15:28  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
18:15:49  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2359, consensus, +java 
18:15:56  <garyo-home>   yes 
18:16:44  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2361 also needs some research, but I don't think I'm the guy 
18:16:44  <garyo-home>   2361: my temptation is do nothing and hope toolchain removes this issue. 
18:17:12  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     That could work, too, but when are we getting to the toolchain work? 
18:17:00  <garyo-home>   let's defer that one for tonight. 
18:17:18  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     defer works for me 
18:17:29  <garyo-home>   grumble... 
18:17:40  <garyo-home>   ok defer for now. 
18:17:48  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
18:18:13  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2362, wow, last one; it really helps to do the research in advance... 
18:18:11  <garyo-home>   2362: I think Steven is the best one for that. 
18:18:15  <garyo-home>   So let's defer it. 
18:18:22  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
18:18:38  <garyo-home>   ok, well done. 
18:18:45  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     agree 
18:18:50  <garyo-home>   I'm guessing Steven forgot about us. 
18:19:13  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     maybe; he did update the spreadsheet. 
18:19:25  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Let's contact him and see if we can resume tomorrow? 
18:19:38  <garyo-home>   I think I can do that, especially if it's not too long. 
18:19:53  <garyo-home>   I'll email him and cc release. 
18:20:06  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Should be short; I think we deferred only five issues. 
18:20:15  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     works for me 
18:20:19  <Jason_at_intel>       ok 
18:20:35  <garyo-home>   good.  Hope to see you then. 
18:20:59  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     yep, see you then.  I'm off to do some shopping for a party 
18:21:13  <garyo-home>   have fun! 
18:22:10  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     It ought to be; it's a surprise anniversary party; over 50 people from all over the country are attending, unknown to the victims 
18:22:31  *      [GregNoel](GregNoel) has been marked as being away 
18:22:49  <garyo-home>   Greg: wow, sounds amazing. 
18:23:04  <Jason_at_intel>       hope the paty goes well 
18:25:57  *      stevenknight (n=[stevenkn@c-67-164-61-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net](mailto:stevenkn@c-67-164-61-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)) has joined #scons 
18:26:07  <stevenknight> anyone still here? 
18:26:41  <garyo-home>   Hi Steven! 
18:26:42  <Jason_at_intel>       yep.. we are still here .. greg might have left 
18:26:45  <stevenknight> hey 
18:26:54  <garyo-home>   see my email just now? 
18:27:05  <stevenknight> sorry for not being here, the wife has a migraine today 
18:27:13  <stevenknight> no, haven't checked email yet 
18:27:19  <garyo-home>   ouch, they are really awful. 
18:27:34  <garyo-home>   My daughter gets them once in a while. 
18:27:35  <Jason_at_intel>       ya... my wife gets them... I understand 
18:27:38  <stevenknight> i had to pick up the afternoon duties 
18:27:46  <stevenknight> child pick up, etc. 
18:27:57  <garyo-home>   understood.  Can we finish up the bug party tomorrow night at the usual time? 
18:28:06  <stevenknight> that should work 
18:28:07  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Wait, 
18:28:12  <stevenknight> hey greg 
18:28:16  <stevenknight> at least for me 
18:28:36  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Hi, just happened to be passing through the office to grab something and saw you had arrived. 
18:29:03  <stevenknight> yeah, family matters intervened; sorry 
18:29:49  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     It's OK; I can stay a few more minutes, but I need to leave shortly.  I didn't keep a list of the issues we bypassed; did you, Gary? 
18:30:18  <garyo-home>   Greg: no, but we can find them quickly I think. 
18:31:17  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     1970? 
18:31:58  <garyo-home>   My defer list from the irc log: 2291, 2351, 2354, 2355, 2357, 2361, 2362 
18:32:28  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2291, then 
18:32:34  <Jason_at_intel>       2352? 
18:32:39  <garyo-home>   oh yes, 1970 too. 
18:32:57  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     More than I thought... 
18:33:15  <garyo-home>   no 2352 is done. 
18:33:28  <garyo-home>   I can do a few now. 
18:33:36  <garyo-home>   How about 1970 as you suggested. 
18:34:08  <garyo-home>   it needs a keyword. 
18:34:44  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     getting_started seems too long 
18:35:07  <garyo-home>   newbie not very flattering 
18:35:22  <garyo-home>   easy_contribution too long 
18:35:30  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     small seems diminutive {;-} 
18:35:45  <stevenknight> "initial" 
18:35:49  <stevenknight> nah 
18:35:59  <stevenknight> "starter" 
18:36:01  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     starter?  startup?  initial isn't bad 
18:36:07  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     jinx 
18:36:05  <garyo-home>   actually I kind of like "small".  It's nonthreatening. 
18:36:08  <garyo-home>   Or starter. 
18:36:26  <stevenknight> "easy" ... 
18:36:34  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Oooohhhh, yes 
18:36:43  <garyo-home>   yes, that's good. 
18:36:48  <garyo-home>   +easy 
18:36:57  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done; now about the issue? 
18:37:53  <garyo-home>   what about it? 
18:38:12  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     anytime and draft pick don't fit together 
18:38:48  <garyo-home>   I think anytime and +easy shouldn't need an owner. 
18:38:52  <Jason_at_intel>       just read..2124... have feedback on it if you want it ( it is not install()) 
18:39:14  <stevenknight> agree w/gary 
18:39:19  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     it needs a schedule, so we're forced to pick someone, or a person, so they can plan it themselves 
18:39:27  <stevenknight> for tracking purposes, create a "draftpick" user? 
18:39:49  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     uh.  issues@scons? 
18:39:42  <stevenknight> if it needs a schedule, is it really "anytime?" 
18:40:06  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     that's my point 
18:40:08  <garyo-home>   any placeholder is ok w/ me for this type. 
18:40:42  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I don't like it, but I'll go with anytime+easy and we'll see how it works.  Contact Jean anyway. 
18:40:47  <stevenknight> [GregNoel](GregNoel):  i'm not following you 
18:40:55  <garyo-home>   Jason: you're right 2124 is not Install, it's an OS handle inheritance race condition. 
18:41:05  <Jason_at_intel>       it is not the OS 
18:41:20  <Jason_at_intel>       we had it out with MS on this... it something else 
18:41:39  <Jason_at_intel>       we have this problem as of today with something completely different 
18:41:41  <garyo-home>   ?  If you have info, please add it to the ticket.  Of course we want to hear about it too. 
18:41:54  <Jason_at_intel>       sure 
18:41:59  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     my point is that if you just say "anytime" and don't assign someone, it will simply keep floating out into the future 
18:42:16  <garyo-home>   Greg: isn't that the point? 
18:42:20  <stevenknight> right, and isn't that precisely what we're trying to do? 
18:42:29  <stevenknight> have a pool of "easy" issues that don't have names assigned 
18:42:39  <stevenknight> as an encouragement for others to get involved? 
18:42:48  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     If that's what you want, I'll go with it. 
18:43:02  <stevenknight> okay, let's go with that and see how it works 
18:43:19  <stevenknight> if it ends up with some unforeseen downside, we can adjust 
18:43:15  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2291? 
18:45:51  <garyo-home>   Steven, 2291 needs your comments. 
18:46:08  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2291, my point is that we probably can't do a compat module without adding C code 
18:46:42  <garyo-home>   Greg: good point. 
18:47:43  <stevenknight> is ctypes => types like cProfile => profile? 
18:48:02  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I don't think so 
18:48:20  <Jason_at_intel>       I thought ctypes was a way to call a C functions in a  DLL  or .so 
18:48:20  <garyo-home>   no, ctypes is C types wrapped for python. 
18:48:25  <stevenknight> ah 
18:48:41  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     plus calling sequences 
18:48:58  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     so you can wrap a function call with fairly arbitrary arguments 
18:49:11  <garyo-home>   right, all that stuff.  It's very general & useful 
18:49:10  <stevenknight> okay, the C implementation necessity  probably suggests it's not a good compat candidate 
18:49:17  <stevenknight> but I'm flying a little blind here (obviously) 
18:49:28  <garyo-home>   right, couldn't make a compat version of it. 
18:49:31  <garyo-home>   no way. 
18:49:56  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     [http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html](http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html) 
18:50:07  <Jason_at_intel>       I am confused... to use ctypes you have to make a c binary? 
18:50:39  <garyo-home>   Jason: by "compat" we mean could we emulate it in older python versions? 
18:51:17  <garyo-home>   For 2291 I think we should do nothing. 
18:51:20  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I assume we'd want to make this change eventually, but not until 2.5 is the floor, since that's where ctypes becomes standard 
18:51:19  <Jason_at_intel>       oh.. I agree fully with that.. you would have to add the Ctype as a extra to the install 
18:51:28  <Jason_at_intel>       much like Ipython did 
18:51:40  <garyo-home>   Greg: agreed. 
18:51:47  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     So where do you want to put it?  Future p1? 
18:51:59  <garyo-home>   Seems reasonable. 
18:52:31  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Maybe with a keyword of something like floor2.5? 
18:52:37  <stevenknight> future p1 sounds good 
18:52:44  <stevenknight> hmm, just looking at the patch 
18:52:53  <garyo-home>   I was just thinking that (keyword floor2.5) 
18:53:01  <stevenknight> to do a compat implementation we don't have to support absolutely everything 
18:53:17  <stevenknight> in some cases we intentionally support only enough to emulate what we use 
18:53:20  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     All it takes is one 
18:53:37  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     C file, that is 
18:53:55  <stevenknight> so the key question:  is there anything in the patch that's not tractable in pure Python? 
18:54:00  <garyo-home>   ... such as ctypes.cdll.msvcrt._get_osfhandle. 
18:54:04  <Jason_at_intel>       is there any hope to support iron python? 
18:54:15  <Jason_at_intel>       Will Ctypes work there? 
18:54:30  <stevenknight> good question re: iron python 
18:54:47  <stevenknight> i'd actually really like it if we'd run under iron python *and* jython 
18:55:33  <garyo-home>   side issue.  For 2291 can we say future p1 +floor2.5? 
18:55:44  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I'll go for that 
18:56:24  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Steven? 
18:56:32  <stevenknight> concur 
18:56:36  <stevenknight> still looking at code 
18:56:57  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done, and I'll make it depend on 2124 
18:56:50  <stevenknight> this is contained enough that I think we can do it with a compat layer 
18:57:16  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     If so, we can review it again 
18:57:32  <stevenknight> okay 
18:57:57  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2353, yes? 
18:58:08  <garyo-home>   2351: 2.x or 3.x?  Greg is worried (correctly) that 2.x is crowded 
18:58:36  <garyo-home>   so minor things like this should be pushed to 3.x. 
18:58:39  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     oops, yes, 2251; skipped one 
18:58:38  <garyo-home>   Steven? 
18:59:05  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     or 2.x p4 or p5 
18:59:28  <stevenknight> you mean 2351 i hope?  I don't see 2251 on the list 
18:59:33  <garyo-home>   yes 2351 
18:59:47  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2351 
19:00:06  *      [GregNoel](GregNoel) isn't doing any mondo typing tonight... 
18:59:49  <stevenknight> i'd prefer 2.x, especially if it's going to be p5 anyway 
18:59:59  <stevenknight> yes, it's crowded 
19:00:23  <stevenknight> but i'd at least like to consider it in the 2.x time frame 
19:00:38  <stevenknight> and make a conscious decision to push it farther out when we (re-)categorize all the 2.x issues 
19:00:41  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2.x p4 or p5 is fine with me 
19:00:50  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     yes, I agree 
19:00:54  <stevenknight> okay, 2.x p4 then 
19:00:56  <garyo-home>   ok too. 
19:00:59  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
19:01:13  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2353 
19:02:00  <stevenknight> 2353:  +easy? 
19:02:09  <stevenknight> eh, it's a patch... 
19:02:24  <stevenknight> is the question who? 
19:02:41  <garyo-home>   I thought I volunteered for 2353. 
19:02:46  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Wait, didn't you take this one, Gary?  2.x p2? 
19:03:01  <garyo-home>   Next on my list was 2354. 
19:03:16  <stevenknight> 2354:  consensus +toolchain 
19:03:42  <garyo-home>   ok, right. 
19:03:48  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Ah, I'm blind, it's 2355 
19:03:47  <garyo-home>   2355 then. 
19:04:03  <stevenknight> k 
19:04:16  <garyo-home>   2355 is -j vs. chdir 
19:04:47  <stevenknight> decision point:  do we just doc the limitation (as suggested by the issue) 
19:05:01  <stevenknight> and open another one for greg's [SideEffect](SideEffect)() suggestion? 
19:04:50  <Jason_at_intel>       I would like a warning 
19:05:29  <stevenknight> Jason_at_intel:  agree, a warning in this case would be good, too 
19:06:10  <Jason_at_intel>       If you don't warn people will think SCons is broken with -j.. even if it is not SCon's fault 
19:06:41  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     The [SideEffect](SideEffect)() needs some research, but a separate issue is a good idea 
19:07:09  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Let's make 2355 cause a warning; make a new one for [SideEffect](SideEffect)() 
19:07:27  <garyo-home>   ok, so make the current issue 2.x p4 stevenknight, and a new issue for the [SideEffect](SideEffect) idea? 
19:07:39  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
19:08:10  <garyo-home>   I think 2357 is next 
19:08:31  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Yeah.  I need to explain [ListLike](ListLike)() again... 
19:09:01  <garyo-home>   (We were just going to assign this to Greg but it needs discussion first.) 
19:09:02  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     The idea is that marking a variable as list-like means that it survives even assignment 
19:09:46  <stevenknight> ? 
19:10:03  <stevenknight> you mean even if I did env['CCFLAGS'] = 'foo' 
19:10:14  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     yep 
19:10:25  <stevenknight> an original [ListLike](ListLike) value of CCFLAGS would *not* be overwritten? 
19:10:54  <Jason_at_intel>       that would require a env.Replace() ? 
19:10:57  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     it would be reset to ['foo'] but it's still list-like 
19:11:20  <stevenknight> wait, i think i get it 
19:11:33  <stevenknight> it's marking certain variables as always being treated as lists 
19:11:57  <stevenknight> so that the "list like" behavior is a function of its semantic meaning in the environment 
19:12:06  <stevenknight> not of the fact that its value is a specific object 
19:12:02  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     yes, exactly, it's mentioned in the Subst... page, but not detailed 
19:12:26  <stevenknight> agree conceptually 
19:12:45  <Jason_at_intel>       is there a prototype of this code? 
19:12:46  <stevenknight> different variables actually do have different semantics 
19:12:52  <stevenknight> based on what they "mean" 
19:12:55  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     yes 
19:13:12  <stevenknight> being smarter about that strikes me as a Good Thing 
19:13:19  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     yes 
19:13:28  <Jason_at_intel>       where? and can i give it a test run for you 
19:13:39  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     it also makes the tokenizing, usw., work better 
19:13:33  <stevenknight> but also potentially dangerous if we don't define things carefully 
19:13:54  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     yes, potentially dangerous 
19:14:01  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     as are all good tools 
19:14:26  <Jason_at_intel>       risk is what makes life fun :-) 
19:15:23  <stevenknight> i could do with a little less fun lately... :-) 
19:15:27  <garyo-home>   Greg, can you prototype it? 
19:16:21  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I have a very rough prototype that works _most_ of the time, but I'm still trying to figure out why it's only "most". 
19:17:01  <Jason_at_intel>       glad to look at it .. if you can share it 
19:17:10  <garyo-home>   That seems like a good next step. 
19:17:16  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     In my copious spare time, I can try to prepare something to show how it works, but the basic idea is simple: 
19:17:43  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     convert env._dict[key] into env.vars.key 
19:18:16  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     then property() will Do The Right Thing 
19:18:57  <garyo-home>   in that case key has to be a python identifier, but perhaps that's already the case. 
19:19:04  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     yes 
19:19:43  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     [a-zA-Z_]\w* to be precise 
19:20:31  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     In any event, we're spending too much time on this 
19:20:54  <garyo-home>   yes, send it around, but for now let's move on. 
19:20:58  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     We should either defer it or try to figure out what the next step is 
19:21:12  <garyo-home>   research, greg. 
19:21:16  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     works 
19:21:29  <stevenknight> +1 
19:21:43  <garyo-home>   I think 2361 is next? 
19:21:46  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2361 
19:22:31  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I think it needs some research to see exactly what he thought he was trying to do, but I don't think I'm the guy 
19:22:38  <garyo-home>   Greg & I are hoping toolchain rework will eliminate this one 
19:23:04  <stevenknight> yep 
19:23:16  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     true, but I'd like to know what he thought he was doing 
19:23:20  <stevenknight> but it would be good to document the restrictions in the meantime 
19:23:24  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     yes 
19:23:32  <stevenknight> he just happens to be using a variable he named "options" 
19:23:51  <garyo-home>   I think you're right, and we reserve that name. 
19:24:00  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I _think_ so, but I'd like to be sure 
19:24:04  <stevenknight> ...without telling anyone...  :-( 
19:24:08  <stevenknight> agree re: being sure 
19:24:34  <garyo-home>   There's a lot about Tools that is imperfectly documented right now.  I'm not even sure this is where to start. 
19:24:34  <stevenknight> i'll take it if no one else wants it 
19:24:48  <stevenknight> and ask him for a copy of his module 
19:24:53  <garyo-home>   ok, thanks 
19:25:11  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     OK, but don't spend any significant time on it; he may be able to just tell you 
19:25:21  <garyo-home>   agreed 
19:25:27  <stevenknight> yes 
19:25:37  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     last one, 2362 
19:25:50  <garyo-home>   +easy 
19:26:20  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     hmmmm 
19:27:12  <garyo-home>   Steven, I was hoping you'd take that one. 
19:27:20  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I'll agree to marking it easy, but let's put it in the queue to get done 
19:27:40  <garyo-home>   2.x p4 stevenknight +easy? ??? 
19:27:43  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2.x p4 is fine with me 
19:27:53  <stevenknight> hey, i'm easy but i'm not cheap 
19:27:58  <garyo-home>   :-) 
19:27:59  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     {;-} 
19:28:14  <stevenknight> 2.x p4 stevenknight is fine w/me 
19:28:22  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     OK, done 
19:28:23  <garyo-home>   ok, great.  We did them all! 
19:28:34  <stevenknight> wow, nice work 
19:28:40  <garyo-home>   It's late here on the early coast. 
19:28:41  <stevenknight> and special thanks for hanging out late after i showed up 
19:28:45  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Yes, and now I've got 30 mins to do the shopping.... 
19:28:51  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     bye, cul 
19:28:53  <garyo-home>   ok, bye all. 
19:29:02  *      garyo-home has quit ("[ChatZilla](ChatZilla) 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]") 
20:57:34  *      stevenknight has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep") 

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